[QUOTE=tkhawk;3727276]
Do you by any chance have the name of the book that refers to this? This is the first I heard of this, so would like to read if it is an old text…[/QUOTE]
still waiting… I asked first… you get to wait behind me!! :D:D:D
[QUOTE=Icecapade;3728413]
still waiting… I asked first… you get to wait behind me!! :D:D:D[/QUOTE]
I said I was at a funeral today and the name of the book is in my desk at work. I am returning to work tomorrow so I will post the name of the book Tuesday morning.
I know… I’m waiting thats all… not being picky, just telling them they get to wait! =)
[QUOTE=Icecapade;3729576]
I know… I’m waiting thats all… not being picky, just telling them they get to wait! =)[/QUOTE]
Sorry Icecapade. I am just touchy. I am not use to people being nice here, well some are and again most aren’t
I’ve signed the book out twice from a neighbouring university and really enjoyed it. I check on who signed it out over say the last 10 years and my daughter and me twice are the only ones. I asked at the main desk what would happen if I lost the book?? How much?? $50:eek: Decided to turn it back in. If it is still on their inventory I will try signing it out again and this time just pay the price.
It is writtin in the mid 1800’s by a guy travelling the dessert and I believe in the army. He writes about the training, customs, stories and legends.
A truely good read.
What they said in their about stallions VS mares in war? A stallion when mortally wounded with still run off the battle field to find a place quiet to die. A mare will just lay down and die.
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3729593]
Sorry Icecapade. I am just touchy. I am not use to people being nice here, well some are and again most aren’t
I’ve signed the book out twice from a neighbouring university and really enjoyed it. I check on who signed it out over say the last 10 years and my daughter and me twice are the only ones. I asked at the main desk what would happen if I lost the book?? How much?? $50:eek: Decided to turn it back in. If it is still on their inventory I will try signing it out again and this time just pay the price.
It is writtin in the mid 1800’s by a guy travelling the dessert and I believe in the army. He writes about the training, customs, stories and legends.
A truely good read.
What they said in their about stallions VS mares in war? A stallion when mortally wounded with still run off the battle field to find a place quiet to die. A mare will just lay down and die.[/QUOTE]
See… I’m wondering about the legitamecy of the book (yeah I can’t spell I’ve been up to my eyeballs in leachate from landfills… sue me!!) as from my humble understanding is that the stallions where NOT used in battle… which is why we trace the arab through the Tail Female, not the stallion… the stallions were unreliable for the noise factor, the mares were generally quiet so they were used.
If they were used in battle… I believe there would be an emphasis more on the studs than the mares. well CS horses I don’t think anyone cares, but when you get down to nitty gritty preservation breeding thats how its done. !
Maybe if you like it so much you can get it on ebay or amazon… we do lots of things via ebay and our group is always up looking for them. That stuff is out there!
[QUOTE=Icecapade;3730061]
See… I’m wondering about the legitamecy of the book ![/QUOTE]
What is that suppose to mean???
The Horses of the Sahara
Main SF 283.D2713
1968
Aurthur Daumas Melchior
Joseph Eugene
Standard Book # 292-78373-6
Library of Congress #68-56130
Copyright 1968 By Shelia M Ohlendorf
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3730474]
What is that suppose to mean???
The Horses of the Sahara
Main SF 283.D2713
1968
Aurthur Daumas Melchior
Joseph Eugene
Standard Book # 292-78373-6
Library of Congress #68-56130
Copyright 1968 By Shelia M Ohlendorf[/QUOTE]
means what it means… as I mentioned earlier, just because its old… doesn’t mean its right.
For example: history, if you note- is very frequently most often written by the victor of a battle. While it is usually a main source of research it cannot be taken at full face value and must be read with a grain of salt, as the dominate party who won and thusly wrote history are obviously bias.
I don’t know about this book… I have never heard of it, nor any of the subject matter that you have mentioned- my knowledge is quiet to the contrary. I’m not saying YOU are wrong… I’m just saying that we as historians who study must NOT take a book simply on face value because it’s the written word. Its like believing everything you read via internet. Its just not very prudent to do so.
I will tell you I will endeavor to find it and read and cross referance it. I’m always interested in A equine history and B military history especially if it concerns the Arab.
Thannk you for taking the time to post the information!
R/
Amazon has it in stock. 2 used and 1 new. Cost $74.95 used over $100 new.
I will have my copy before the christmas holidays, so I am told and I will scan parts of it on spur:)ring and scaring and the use of stallions in battle.
My memory for things like that is photogenic and I know what it says.
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3731009]
Amazon has it in stock. 2 used and 1 new. Cost $74.95 used over $100 new.
I will have my copy before the christmas holidays, so I am told and I will scan parts of it on spur:)ring and scaring and the use of stallions in battle.
My memory for things like that is photogenic and I know what it says.:D[/QUOTE]
don’t doubt it! I can remember where on a page or pages… but a lot of times ont what.
I think I have the photogenic part but ran out of film! 
Thanks . I will check out if my library has a copy. I assumed it was an old Arabic text that was translated. Not to say that an European written book is any less accurate-but interesting. The time I lived in the middle east , I never heard of this training method. I never got to ride, just hung out at a neighbouring stable -but was a kid so didn’t exactly ask about battle training.Wish I had-there were some veteran horse keepers with generations of knowledge…
It is the translated version but I beleive the original was in French??
It also talks about distances travelled, the use of camels, other training, feed and again lots of legends/stories. The draft camels are unreal carrying loads of 1500 pounds. Also a section on blacksmiths and their immunity to war.
They got a percentage of all spoils of war and at the same time were immune to plunder from other tribes. A great job if you could get it.:lol::lol:
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3719570]
I am NOT NOT advocating this but I understand it.
Again I an NOT saying this, I am repeating what I read in a very old old book on Arabian horses.
If I had to, to save my life or a person’s life I would run Rio to death. I understand this and I would do it to save a life.
The arab horse was a WAR horse. His rider depended on him for his life. To loose a horse at times was to die and if death or killing a horse was a stake the horse was sacrificed and you would do the same to Sweets if your life was at stake.
Anyway after a horse was made, say 7 years old he was SPURRED.
A specialist rode the horse wearing knives on his spurs that cut the flanks and the horse was spurred in a professional manner to inflict certain cuts. Then the cuts were rubbed with either salt, gunpowder or a combination of both to inflict severe pain. Once the cuts healed that horse would run till he dropped or respond to the slightest touch, yes it was out of fear but in battle fear in a horse is not considered and the life of the rider is of utmost importance so hence the harsh lesson with the spur.
Again I read this from an old old arab book, can give the name and all information if someone needs it but once trained with this method the horse never refused.
I do not go to these extremes and certianly have never cut a horse but in the end my horses are made and will not refuse.
It is a shame when a 1 to 2 month old horse in training at 3 years of age can beat out 20 and 30 year old horses in both manners, manuverabilty and courage at crossing whatever.[/QUOTE]
DERN!! There goes my romantic ideas about Arabs. I thought they were considered much loved family members in those days. Not a way you’d treat anything loved much less a family member. I really don’t think rubbing cuts with salt, gunpowder or whatever AFTER the fact would teach a horse squat.
[QUOTE=pj;3731440]
DERN!! There goes my romantic ideas about Arabs. I thought they were considered much loved family members in those days. Not a way you’d treat anything loved much less a family member. I really don’t think rubbing cuts with salt, gunpowder or whatever AFTER the fact would teach a horse squat.[/QUOTE]
They loved their horses.They blanketed them every night. Their manes were never cut after a certain age. At a certain age the manes were shaved off and then allowed to grow in. From the mane they could tell if the horse was old enough or something like that. Also if a husband mistreated a horse the wife could go to the leader and report him and he would be punished.
This running a horse to death is only if your life depended on it and who wouldn’t give their horses life to save their own.
The salt rubbed in the spur cuts hurt the horse so bad that this fear remained in him and he would never resist the spur again no matter what.
I didn’t write the book, I just repeated what is in it and I will scan that section when I get my book. Which is either before Christmas , they are trying but it could be right after.
Don’t shoot the messenger:D:D
This is a link to the book. Very good reading but expensive
http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=horses+of+the+sahara
I never took it to mean that “YOU” do these things to Rio or Strider. In your first post on the subject, you clearly said that you were not advocating it, but it’s what was written in a book.
Some of the old time things people did to horses, WAS terrifying. They used to cut open hooves and “bleed” them to try to relieve lameness, for instance. I have a book at home that talks quite a bit about the practice of opening up hooves and letting them bleed for therapeutic reasons.
Thankfully we’ve all come a long way, haven’t we?
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3731777]
I never took it to mean that “YOU” do these things to Rio or Strider. In your first post on the subject, you clearly said that you were not advocating it, but it’s what was written in a book.
Some of the old time things people did to horses, WAS terrifying. They used to cut open hooves and “bleed” them to try to relieve lameness, for instance. I have a book at home that talks quite a bit about the practice of opening up hooves and letting them bleed for therapeutic reasons.
Thankfully we’ve all come a long way, haven’t we?[/QUOTE]
Vickey I never once thought of you when I posted that.
They were cruel but maybe their life was fighting and a horse was just a tool??
This is another much cheap place to get the book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0292783736/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229462387&sr=8-1
The american cavalry would lay their horses down and hide behind them when caught in the open. Do you think that was also cruel. A bullet ment for you would be stopped by your horse?? Cruel or just survival???
That’s true Norval. The horse was replaceable but human life wasn’t. I imagine they had no time for pussy footing around horses when human lives were at risk!
You have to be careful with 19th Century “travel literature.” Some is pretty good (the work of Richard Burton, for example) but some travel writers just published myths and some were frankly “tongue in cheek” (Mark Twain comes to mind, here). Just 'cause it was written a long time ago does not mean the content is factual. 
I don’t know if the Arabs used stallions in battle or not. If they didn’t what did they do with their surplus? At any given time roughly 50% of foals will be male. That’s a strong argument for use, either intact or gelded. A mare can make a fine performance mount, but if she’s also used for breeding will loose about four months of the year. She’ll be restricted maybe two months more. This, again, argues for use of male horses as war horses. Whether or not these arguments carried the day with desert peoples I don’t know.
A 'Net friend did some research several years back on horses in the Arabian Penensula in the time of the Prophet and as Islam expanded militarily. She found that for every horse there were MANY more camels. Seldom did a band, even for a wealthy man, exceed five or six head. The poor forage of the Penensula at that time severely limited equine numbers.
Camels were essential to effective military operations and were far more numberous. It was customary for the warrior to ride a camel; use others to carry food, fodder, forage, and water; still others to carry weapons, field gear, tents, etc.; and pony the horses. When combat was immenant, the horses were saddled and readied. The Great Khan used this practice in some of his desert campaigns in Asia. It’s done this way even today by mounted Jonjeweed (sp) militia in Somalia.
G.
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3731710]
They loved their horses.They blanketed them every night. Their manes were never cut after a certain age. At a certain age the manes were shaved off and then allowed to grow in. From the mane they could tell if the horse was old enough or something like that. Also if a husband mistreated a horse the wife could go to the leader and report him and he would be punished.
This running a horse to death is only if your life depended on it and who wouldn’t give their horses life to save their own.
The salt rubbed in the spur cuts hurt the horse so bad that this fear remained in him and he would never resist the spur again no matter what.
I didn’t write the book, I just repeated what is in it and I will scan that section when I get my book. Which is either before Christmas , they are trying but it could be right after.
Don’t shoot the messenger:D:D[/QUOTE]
Shadow, my comments were not aimed at you. I’m just saying what THEY did doesn’t make sense to me and I don’t believe you could do something you loved that way. I can understand the running to death to save your life but not the cutting and the torturing afterwards and that’s exactly what it was if they did do that. Also do NOT believe that rubbing wounds with fiery stuff taught the horse a thing except to be afraid of people.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;3731870]
You have to be careful with 19th Century “travel literature.” Some is pretty good (the work of Richard Burton, for example) but some travel writers just published myths and some were frankly “tongue in cheek” (Mark Twain comes to mind, here). Just 'cause it was written a long time ago does not mean the content is factual.
I don’t know if the Arabs used stallions in battle or not. If they didn’t what did they do with their surplus? At any given time roughly 50% of foals will be male. That’s a strong argument for use, either intact or gelded. A mare can make a fine performance mount, but if she’s also used for breeding will loose about four months of the year. She’ll be restricted maybe two months more. This, again, argues for use of male horses as war horses. Whether or not these arguments carried the day with desert peoples I don’t know.
A 'Net friend did some research several years back on horses in the Arabian Penensula in the time of the Prophet and as Islam expanded militarily. She found that for every horse there were MANY more camels. Seldom did a band, even for a wealthy man, exceed five or six head. The poor forage of the Penensula at that time severely limited equine numbers.
Camels were essential to effective military operations and were far more numberous. It was customary for the warrior to ride a camel; use others to carry food, fodder, forage, and water; still others to carry weapons, field gear, tents, etc.; and pony the horses. When combat was immenant, the horses were saddled and readied. The Great Khan used this practice in some of his desert campaigns in Asia. It’s done this way even today by mounted Jonjeweed (sp) militia in Somalia.
G.[/QUOTE]
Argh… already been stated… just b/c its old don’t mean its right. Yours far more eloquently put but that particular thought hasn’t been discussed yet. I forwarded this information my my father who is an expert at military history especially regarding horses and the military. (truthfully he was born in the wrong generations… he needed war on horse back, not in tank… he spent a fair amount of time w/ the arm and trying to proactively further their equine program… shaking head. damn people… tanks will do it all!!.. I digress)… anyways I expect him to be able to come up with some information about this.
We do a lot of reading and as I said… stallions from my understanding were not a staple in war. they were too noisy for risk. The Beduin people were tribal… nomadic… not having staked homes and what not. they pilaged, they plundered, quiet was the quintessencial war horse. not the screaming magnificant stallion challanging the other horse. thats not how it worked.
They did value their animals. THEY SLEPT IN THEIR TENTS for crying out loud. I think we can all agree to this that they were a prized possession. But camels were not the be all end all… they were not quick enough for raids, which was at the time of the Beduins greatest means of survival.
And yes cav horses were to lay down… if you were to read the numbers of horses rotated through in the civil war you probably would cry. Also why horse thieving was so offensive… they were a very important essential commodaty or pawn of war.
