Side passing

Foreign texts by other country men often have their own interpretations. That is why I was curious if it had been an Arab text that was translated-kind of like a Xenophon thing. But still it will make an interesting read.

There are plenty more strains than the few known and popular in the west. Stallions were not as important as the mare. In the West it has simply become a way of identification-over there each strain has a story behind it. Which is why I was surprised after coming here, reading accounts that the stallions were all important and not the mares(In Europe maybe -I don’t know-but not in the Arabs). In the old days, they had poems about war mares. Local Arab tales and stories over there all revolve around the war mare-never a war stallion or gelding(I believe in the old days at least, they did not geld). The war mare was considered supreme. They did ride stallions, just battle wa smostly mares

I grew up partly in the Kingdom of Bahrain, in the middle east-here is a link to their stud. Bahrain alone has 20 strains of Arabs-all from mares. Nice introduction about how they view Arabians…
http://www.bahrainroyalstud.com/arabhorse.htm

[QUOTE=tkhawk;3732209]
Stallions were not as important as the mare. In the West it has simply become a way of identification-over there each strain has a story behind it. Which is why I was surprised after coming here, reading accounts that the stallions were all important and not the mares(In Europe maybe -I don’t know-but not in the Arabs). In the old days, they had poems about war mares. Local Arab tales and stories over there all revolve around the war mare-never a war stallion or gelding(I believe in the old days at least, they did not geld). The war mare was considered supreme. They did ride stallions, just battle wa smostly mares

http://www.bahrainroyalstud.com/arabhorse.htm[/QUOTE]
Not an arab owner or a student of arab history but THIS is more what I’ve read and always believed. I don’t like your book, shadow, although man being what man is I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. Really stupid, cruel, ignorant but could be true.

We have our very own famous war horse, a gelding at that.
http://www.equinenet.org/heroes/comanche.html

We teach things through pain as well. Most/all of us are guilty of it.
The electric fence. Most of us use electric fences and at one time all horses touch it and receive a shock. It does hurt but are the horses harmed by it??
When a horse gets a particularly bad zap most of the horses in the surrounding area run.
How about the invisible fencing for dogs. A shock collar around the neck??? A shock collar to train receivers at a distance??
All/every one an instrument of torture.:lol::lol:

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3732313]
We teach things through pain as well. Most/all of us are guilty of it.
The electric fence. Most of us use electric fences and at one time all horses touch it and receive a shock. It does hurt but are the horses harmed by it??
When a horse gets a particularly bad zap most of the horses in the surrounding area run.
How about the invisible fencing for dogs. A shock collar around the neck??? A shock collar to train receivers at a distance??
All/every one an instrument of torture.:lol::lol:[/QUOTE]
LOLLOL MY FOOT! We don’t hold them against the fence. The fence does not cause severe pain, we don’t LATER stand and shock them again by holding the fence against them for a time. (rubbing in salt). To even compare these two things is ridiculous

http://daughterofthewind.org/

is an excellant resource for Arab history, run by a young man who works in DC at this point. Speaks 5 languages and speaks with a great deal of first hand knowledge about these horses as he used to be an active in country breeder before moving to the states where he currently helps us with our Davenports.

Anyway. there are many war horses for the US as well. Traveller is still on display in the Jackson Memorial Hall at VMI. I think he name was traveller… hmmm mumble mumble… trying to not think hard on said study break.

Pony express horses I think could fall into that category as well. Wadduda one of the greatest war the Beduins knew of… was importated and lived her the remainder of her days. Albiet not american she was here. They are there, just hidden.

To the pain issue? well. horse’s live in a world of “the bigger stick”. who has the bigger stick. love respect doesn’t really work, so YES there is a need to show respect… demand it of your horse. that doesn’t mean we have to beat it into submission. if they are trained right from an early age, very rarely do you have to go back and convience them that you are the one carrying the bigger stick. but there are times when some sort of phsyical reminder is required.

I’m sure if you have handled a stallion properly anyone call tell you this. You can’t beat them to submission… but you have to lay ground rules or you will have a monster on your hands.

There are means and methods. Pain or better yet the allusion to such has its appropriate place, in moderation obviously.

But also none of you can sit there and throw stones, many times it LOOKS or on paper SOUNDS worse than it is… and most people have had a moment when they have disciplined their horse out of anger… we have all done it… it happens. so before we start a war on pain vs not… every one has lashed out at their horse in anger, and if you haven’t well then you must be close to perfect on the patience scale and in that case I a. either pity you for lacking emotions or b. will not stand next to you b/c the last perfect person on earth… they cruicified.

:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=pj;3732473]
LOLLOL MY FOOT! We don’t hold them against the fence. The fence does not cause severe pain, we don’t LATER stand and shock them again by holding the fence against them for a time. (rubbing in salt). To even compare these two things is ridiculous[/QUOTE]

I’m not comparing an electric fence to anything. I am just saying we all use some form of punishment/pain at some time in training a horse. Some carry whips. Are they just for show? or do you actually hit the horse??

Someone mentioned they don’t like MY book. I never wrote it. I just mentioned training a horse through pain with spurs was in that book. I seem to be the only one on here who read it and I am just repeating what I read. My horse has no scars or cuts on his flanks.:smiley: The hair is unruffled.

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3732588]
I’m not comparing an electric fence to anything. I am just saying we all use some form of punishment/pain at some time in training a horse. Some carry whips. Are they just for show? or do you actually hit the horse??

Someone mentioned they don’t like MY book. I never wrote it. I just mentioned training a horse through pain with spurs was in that book. I seem to be the only one on here who read it and I am just repeating what I read. My horse has no scars or cuts on his flanks.:smiley: The hair is unruffled.[/QUOTE]
I said I didn’t like your book and I DO understand you didn’t write the book.
I also don’t think you do things like to your horses…it just seemed to me that you were comparing the two but maybe I misunderstood. If so I apologize.

I am more fascinated by history. That the Bedouins were such a male dominated society and yet they choose mares for battle .

The Spanish on the other hand(this is from what I read and have no direct experience) used only stallions or maybe geldings? From what I read mares were never used in battle.

In India there is one state which is very famous for horses and for war on horseback. Most of the stories you hear is about stallions, not mares…

I am just interested in horse history. Mostly why a certain region picked mares and another stallions. Could it be the type of warfare? In India and Spain(again no personal experience), they had huge armies and horses were just part of the army. In India you had horses, infantry, cavalry, elephants etc. I am sure Spain must have had huge armies/navies etc.

But the Arabs were mostly nomadic and they were more raids and withdrawals. In the middle ages , they did build huge armies and conquered Spain and ruled there, but after that they kind of slunk back to the deserts and were nomads.
Just curiosity -if mares serve better in one form of warfare or stallions in more organized ones -just a curiosity for me about the preferance for one type of horse (I am sure there were armies where it did not matter)-but among ones who overwhelmingly preferred one type-I would love to know the reason…

[QUOTE=tkhawk;3732682]
Could it be the type of warfare? In India and Spain(again no personal experience), they had huge armies and horses were just part of the army. In India you had horses, infantry, cavalry, elephants etc. I am sure Spain must have had huge armies/navies etc.

But the Arabs were mostly nomadic and they were more raids and withdrawals. In the middle ages , they did build huge armies and conquered Spain and ruled there, but after that they kind of slunk back to the deserts and were nomads.
Just curiosity -if mares serve better in one form of warfare or stallions in more organized ones -just a curiosity for me about the preferance for one type of horse (I am sure there were armies where it did not matter)-but among ones who overwhelmingly preferred one type-I would love to know the reason…[/QUOTE]

From my POV thats pretty much it. as I mentioned earlier… nomads… raiding need for stealth, speed, concentration.

now note this is not of ALL stallions… but it is said they are more vocal, more interseted in expressing a presence and can be agressive. You need a hores in a raid, to be complety focused on the task at hand, not having it out with the other horse.

In modern line to line warfare, even pilage and plunder you are looking for a more agressive assertive horse who is dominance establishing. One that gets in the face, horse or human alike.

Mares WILL get in the face of others… interesting story about a mare who was a vicious fighter that one guy earned her respect from napoleons era… I believe she ripped the face off a messenger who got to close to her…

but. the quiet focused factor I think becomes a large factor in stealth warfare.

And god this is so much more interseting than integrated solid waste mechanics… anyone … takers I’ll trade study for history research!!!

Please?

no?

damn:cry:

In the book I am referring to they did mention the hassel with dealing with a large number of stallion all together but they did say a stallion would not let you down if mortally wounded and would carry you free of the battle field even if fatally wounded while the mare would just lay down and die.

This seemed to offset the trouble a stallion could be in camp.
It also told stories about a heavily scared mare from many a battle and a race. It was interesting reading.
It also seemed to support that camals were far easier to keep because of the lack of food and a war horse was ponnied beside a camal and only in time of battle was it used.

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3733197]
In the book I am referring to they did mention the hassel with dealing with a large number of stallion all together but they did say a stallion would not let you down if mortally wounded and would carry you free of the battle field even if fatally wounded while the mare would just lay down and die.

This seemed to offset the trouble a stallion could be in camp.
It also told stories about a heavily scared mare from many a battle and a race. It was interesting reading.
It also seemed to support that camals were far easier to keep because of the lack of food and a war horse was ponnied beside a camal and only in time of battle was it used.[/QUOTE]

That I could buy. As anything taken w/ a grain of salt. I put a word in to the history dude… he has to come home from guard stuff for christmas first, but he believes he has the book in our library out under a side table.

They might be referring to Wadduda, who even in grainy black and whites showed scars, she was the mare that French, Italians and others had tried to buy for exorbitant amounts of money… and she was given to Homer Davenport on his journey there as a gift… which is how she came to live in America. She even had her own slave as she was such a highly treasured mare… and he stayed with her till the day she died.

I do recall also the horses were not ridden in excess… which of course makes sense… you don’t want to drive your nascar everywhere… its your race car, drive your hybrid instead, more fuel efficient. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=tkhawk;3732682]
I am more fascinated by history. That the Bedouins were such a male dominated society and yet they choose mares for battle .

The Spanish on the other hand(this is from what I read and have no direct experience) used only stallions or maybe geldings? From what I read mares were never used in battle.

In India there is one state which is very famous for horses and for war on horseback. Most of the stories you hear is about stallions, not mares…

I am just interested in horse history. Mostly why a certain region picked mares and another stallions. Could it be the type of warfare? In India and Spain(again no personal experience), they had huge armies and horses were just part of the army. In India you had horses, infantry, cavalry, elephants etc. I am sure Spain must have had huge armies/navies etc.

But the Arabs were mostly nomadic and they were more raids and withdrawals. In the middle ages , they did build huge armies and conquered Spain and ruled there, but after that they kind of slunk back to the deserts and were nomads.
Just curiosity -if mares serve better in one form of warfare or stallions in more organized ones -just a curiosity for me about the preferance for one type of horse (I am sure there were armies where it did not matter)-but among ones who overwhelmingly preferred one type-I would love to know the reason…[/QUOTE]

In the Iberian world the stallion is for riding and the mare for breeding. Geldings are virtually unknown. We visited Brazil in 2003 and the only mares routinely ridden were those in training for inspection or in preparation for shows or other competitions. The stallions we rode on a regular basis were very well trained but required a rider not a passenger.

Recently I had our stallion in training with a man whose basic instruction was from the Alter Real stud in Portugal. He does not geld his stallions unless they have a serious physical or mental defect. He turns his stallions out together. There are “scraps” but they are mostly posturing with limited physical contact. There is a lot of “horseplay” with lots of physical contact. The difference is easy to see once you see it a few times.

Mongols liked geldings, Arabs liked mares, Iberians like(d) stallions (as did Xenophon and Aboriginal Americans, the latter learning from the Iberians). Each made their pick based upon the needs of their society.

Those picks would also affect the breed. Selection of breeding stock would re-inforce the natural tendencies of the animals selected.

I’m not sure the sheer size of an army would have a necessary impact on type of horse selected. All armies, no matter how big, are based upon a tactical unit that can be quite small. The Mongol base unit was ten riders. Each rider had 4-6 horses. It increased by a factor of 10, up to the a “division” of 10,000. It was a very well organized army with an efficient supply system. This leads to military truism that “amatuers study tactics; professionals study logistics.” :slight_smile:

IIRC the number of pure Arabian horses in the Islamic armies was relatively small. The great horse breeding areas of North Africa were Mauritania and Libya. At the time of the Islamic expansion these were not deserts as we see them today but more fertile, savannah-like environments. Did not Solomon get his horses from Libya? The basis of the Iberian horse is far more the Barb horse from Mauritania than the Arabian horse.

There is one case where mares are regularly ridden in the Iberian world, and that’s if women choose to ride. In that society a high born woman might ride but it was not so common. And if she rode it would be a mare. Even today this pattern seems to be followed (at least in Brazil). A man on a mare, unless he’s a trainer, will get an “eyebrow.” A women on a stallion will get two “eyebrows.” A common word in Spanish and Portuguese for “horsewoman” is “amazona” and it has nothing to do with the river. :lol:

Again I highly recommend the works of Dr. Bennett and Lt. Col. DiMarco.

G.

Thanks Guilherme. I have two more books for my reading list!

[QUOTE=tkhawk;3733794]
Thanks Guilherme. I have two more books for my reading list![/QUOTE]

De nada! :cool:

G,

[QUOTE=tkhawk;3732209]
Foreign texts by other country men often have their own interpretations. That is why I was curious if it had been an Arab text that was translated-kind of like a Xenophon thing. But still it will make an interesting read.

There are plenty more strains than the few known and popular in the west. Stallions were not as important as the mare. In the West it has simply become a way of identification-over there each strain has a story behind it. Which is why I was surprised after coming here, reading accounts that the stallions were all important and not the mares(In Europe maybe -I don’t know-but not in the Arabs). In the old days, they had poems about war mares. Local Arab tales and stories over there all revolve around the war mare-never a war stallion or gelding(I believe in the old days at least, they did not geld). The war mare was considered supreme. They did ride stallions, just battle wa smostly mares

I grew up partly in the Kingdom of Bahrain, in the middle east-here is a link to their stud. Bahrain alone has 20 strains of Arabs-all from mares. Nice introduction about how they view Arabians…
http://www.bahrainroyalstud.com/arabhorse.htm[/QUOTE]

I have read that about the mares too, tkhawk. And something about the mares never being sold to an outsider/foreigner; and that if a mare should ever be bred to a non-purebred stallion, she would never again be considered pureblooded and would lose her value as a producer of purebred foals.

Guilherme,

According to the Bible Solomon got horses from Egypt. I Kings 10:28, etc. –
"And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt … "

“Amazona”–the same word as for the women warriors?

Another great book for Arabian bloodline/history buffs like myself.

The Arabian Horse in America.
It was written by George Conn, who was a vet and a Arabian horse breeder as well if I recall

  • published in 1957.

I have a copy, but I’ve never seen another copy, not that I’ve ever really really looked.

I’ve had it since I was a teen, and it makes a decided effort to trace the various bloodlines that were imported into NA in the early development of Arabians on this continent- I believe he attempts to go back into the 1700s, if memory serves. I still refer to it quite often when looking for information on older Arabian families, and it’s never let me down yet.:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=rainechyldes;3734710]
Another great book for Arabian bloodline/history buffs like myself.

The Arabian Horse in America.
It was written by George Conn, who was a vet and a Arabian horse breeder as well if I recall

  • published in 1957.

I have a copy, but I’ve never seen another copy, not that I’ve ever really really looked.

yet.:)[/QUOTE]

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/0668028394/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1229551846&sr=1-1&condition=all