Sidebar, Your Honor

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

So, I have a question that pertains to the Barisone case and wanted to start a new thread because the current thread keeps getting off topic

Here goes :

In the case of RC s gun , if the defendant had a gun safe full of guns and ammo why did he need hers?

If this was asked and answered please forgive. These threads have become so long , it may have been and I just didn’t see it?

Other question:

Did the DA convene a Grand Jury to bring it to trial or did he believe he had enough evidence for a guilty verdict?

The current thread has almost too much information for the layman to understand .

Most of my knowledge of the law comes from TV shows and Legally Blonde.
( I confess I Love that movie!)

Warner: “You got into Harvard Law?”
Elle : “Like, it’s hard?”

[MHM]

I have two thoughts regarding the gun issue.

First of all, the information that he had a safe full of guns came from a third party who had not been on the property for five years, by her own admission. So who knows if it was accurate in the first place, much less five years later.

Also, if he had a safe full of rifles, but no handguns, he might have wanted a smaller gun that he could carry tucked away in his pocket for whatever reason.

Obviously, that is all strictly conjecture on my part.

[Sdel]

@MHM

Also, if he had a safe full of rifles, but no handguns, he might have wanted a smaller gun that he could carry tucked away in his pocket for whatever reason.

NJ requires licensing as a prerequisite for owning a gun. They are pretty open about rifle type firearms. Handguns require licensing above and beyond that which is granted for rifle ownership and part of that is valid justification for the need to have a handgun. Guns must also be stored/transported in a container, with the magazine and gun separated. He may have not owned any handguns himself.

LK has insinuated a separate and distinct reason for 2 different gun charges. My guess is one is a similar charge to RC’s and/or lack of licensing for a handgun or lack of proper storage while moving the gun. The other is probably for the use of the gun.

[LilRanger]

Based on posts in other threads, a grand jury did return an indictment. My understanding of GJ trials does not lead me to believe that getting an indictment is terribly difficult to do.

[Knights_Mom]

@LilRanger

Based on posts in other threads, a grand jury did return an indictment. My understanding of GJ trials does not lead me to believe that getting an indictment is terribly difficult to do.

Indictments are not hard in that the deck is totally stacked in favor of the prosecution. There is no defense and as long as the D.A. manages to stay standing and breathing and can explain why to indict it clear sailing. It’s late so I did a copy and paste for this

The Grand Jury

Typically, grand jury is composed of citizens from the jurisdiction where the charges are being brought. Generally, a grand jury meets in a room, separate from the courtroom, to hear the evidence supporting a charge. If the grand jury determines that probable cause exists they will return a True Bill. If the grand jury believes that probable cause is lacking, they will return an indictment “No Bill” and the charge will not go forward.

Probable Cause

Probable Cause is an evidentiary standard used to determine if it is more likely than not that the crime took place. If Probable Cause is found, it does not mean that a jury has found the defendant guilty. It means that the grand jury believes that a trial is warranted.

Special Indictments

Generally, each state has special indictments. The most common two variations are straight indictments (sometimes referred to as a direct indictment) and sealed indictments.

For felony charges, most states will have a preliminary trial to determine if probable cause exists to send a charge to a grand jury. If the prosecution decides to bypass this step, it will issue a straight indictment.

The prosecution may elect to straight indict if they need to quickly bring charges against a defendant. Alternatively, the prosecution may straight indict a defendant if probable cause is not found in a lower court preliminary hearing.

A sealed indictment bypasses a preliminary hearing and the charge is brought directly to a grand jury. The prosecution might use a sealed indictment in drug manufacturing and distribution cases. A sealed indictment is not accessible to the public and the names of any witnesses are kept secret until right before trial. This is utilized to protect the identities of confidential informants that will be witnesses at trial.

True Bill

If an indictment is returned a True Bill, then the grand jury has decided that a trial should occur. If the defendant does not have a lawyer, he can seek court-appointed counsel at this time. The defendant will often be assigned a trial date at this time. In most states, the defendant or the prosecution can request that the trial occur in front of a jury at this stage.

[CanteringCarrot]

I just asked this question re the gun on the other thread before I saw this thread. Interesting points.

[Nous]

The kindest interpretation is that MB learning of RC’s possession of a firearm asked that it be handed over so it could be placed in a safe place where it would not be accessible to children. Then on needing to see LK urgently and knowing there was a possibly dangerous dog on the premises grabbed the first defensive weapon that came to hand.

The most nefarious interpretation is that MB having premeditated the murders of LK & RG decided to use a weapon that he believed would not be traced directly to him, & would provide a suitable alternative candidate as the perpetrator of the murders, i.e. the claim would be that RC had committed the murders with her own gun, if his DNA was found on it, it would be claimed that it was because at one time had asked to see it and had handled it at that time.

To my mind the nefarious interpretation is highly implausible, it would indicate a degree of premeditation that did not seem present in the way the shooting was actually carried out.

[CanteringCarrot]

Thought of something else:

He may or may not own guns that he deemed suitable for the job. Perhaps the one from RC was smaller, had better concealment, and/or was easier to handle for whatever his intended purpose was. He might have wanted to see it to see if it was what he needed.

As for what he needed it for, idk if it was for some plan, or simply for self defense/as a just in case type thing.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Thanks for your answers.
They are helpful.
I still have some questions about the gun but until the trial there won’t be any answers.

[trubandloki]

I am wondering where his safe full of guns was located? In the house? In the barn?

[DownYonder]

@Nous

The most nefarious interpretation is that MB having premeditated the murders of LK & RG decided to use a weapon that he believed would not be traced directly to him, & would provide a suitable alternative candidate as the perpetrator of the murders, i.e. the claim would be that RC had committed the murders with her own gun, if his DNA was found on it, it would be claimed that it was because at one time had asked to see it and had handled it at that time.

If this is what happened, then it seems obvious that MB’s mental state was in a downward spiral. A person doesn’t build a successful business and climb to very near the pinnacle of their chosen sport/profession, only to fall so spectacularly without there being contributing factors such as extreme substance abuse, brain tumor, TBI, or intense stress caused by financial woes or interpersonal issues (and stress can certainly be exacerbated by PTSD).

I know it has been alleged that MB had PTSD from emotional abuse suffered in his childhood, but if any of the physical conditions applied, I’m thinking it surely would have been discovered during his incarceration.

[DownYonder]

@trubandloki

I am wondering where his safe full of guns was located? In the house? In the barn?

Good question. And do we know for a fact it was in the NJ facility? Or was it perhaps at the FL facility?

[TBKite]

My personal favourite hypothetical scenario is that after CPS showed up he decided he was going to end the situation by ordering LK off the property at gunpoint (no, I do not think this was wise or rational). I think she instead got in his face, threatened him, got on the phone with her lawyer etc, and he got so agitated and angry he fired (no, I don’t think this was justified).

That’s it. I don’t think he planned squat, I don’t think she physically threatened him to make it true self defense, I think his particular brand of mental health and personality problems met her mental health and personality problems along with indifferent but not technically negligent LE, and with a handgun available, and this train wreck was the result.

[Sdel]

@TBKite

That’s it. I don’t think he planned squat, I don’t think she physically threatened him to make it true self defense, I think his particular brand of mental health and personality problems met her mental health and personality problems along with indifferent but not technically negligent LE, and with a handgun available, and this train wreck was the result.

I’m not sure. She has repeated several times a scenario for that 3rd bullet that can only occur if MB is on the ground. Also, the manner in which they were found makes me think he was crawling around on the ground before grabbing the gun and stuffing it under himself.

[Angela_Freda]

@TBKite

My personal favourite hypothetical scenario is that after CPS showed up he decided he was going to end the situation by ordering LK off the property at gunpoint (no, I do not think this was wise or rational). I think she instead got in his face, threatened him, got on the phone with her lawyer etc, and he got so agitated and angry he fired (no, I don’t think this was justified).

According to LK, at some point she beat him on the head with her cell phone, breaking it.
Did that happen after she called 911? One might assume, since after being smashed it might not work.

So when did that happen?

MB head/face was bleeding when the first cop arrived
Was LKs phone covered in blood? If so, whose blood was on the phone?

[MHM]

@Nous

The kindest interpretation is that MB learning of RC’s possession of a firearm asked that it be handed over so it could be placed in a safe place where it would not be accessible to children. Then on needing to see LK urgently and knowing there was a possibly dangerous dog on the premises grabbed the first defensive weapon that came to hand.

And to me, that sounds like a perfectly plausible explanation. Much more so than the other one.

Not necessarily a great idea, for sure. But perfectly plausible.

Especially since the dog had already bitten someone on the property, and did, in fact, end up biting the policeman who was first on the scene.

[Knights_Mom]

This is something that should be figured out forensically. Parties may remember things incorrectly for any number of reasons. The fog of war is real.

[Angela_Freda]

A struggle over the gun, at several/many/any points, makes more sense than the murder plot scenario.

[TBKite]

I’m open to additional details, this is just the basic scenario I can envision.

[Sdel]

@TBKite

I’m open to additional details, this is just the basic scenario I can envision.

Would you like me to post the surviving account of “what happened”? Most of us don’t believe it is accurate, but it’s what is on “file” so to speak….or do we want to keep this a bit more of a general thread to minimize drama?

And the first responding LEO has testified about what he saw when he arrived on scene.