Sidebar, Your Honor

[FitzE]

@Einhorn

Maybe the tapes are inadmissable as to proving elements of a crime, but the information, if not used to prove elements of a crime, just that someone said something, to flesh out a journalistic story, doesn’t make them possible to refer to?

I mean, the standard for what a journalist uses is different that what can be used in a court of law. Journalists publish hearsay all the time.

Of course, but, should they use illegal gained material to present a real person in a bad light, does that not expose them to liability for libel/slander? It’s different from saying, “Party X claimed that this happened.” It would be using the actual material on those recordings. I suppose they could say, “Party X claims to have recordings in which Party Y is heard plotting the murder of Party X.” But, I don’t see how they can use, verbatim, info from the recordings w/o exposing themselves IF those recordings were determined to be illegal.

It would be interesting to have someone opine on the legality/illegality of the recordings.

@Scribbler

But there is no reason those standards apply to other venues. For instance, people get fired all the time based on videos that could be inadmissible in court or don’t even show them doing anything for which there’s a criminal charge. Clubs are free to make their own rules and hold members to them. SS does not require the standards of a court trial.

That’s not my question, though. And I actually don’t know that people get fired for something that, if they instituted a wrongful termination suit, the employer could not back up b/c the recording was not made legally. Do you have examples of that? Clubs are free to make their own rules. However, SS has an investigation and appeals process. If they, for example, banned MHG based on what’s on those tapes, and MHG said, prove it, and all they had for back up were illegal recordings, I don’t see that playing in SS’s favour at arbitration.

@Scribbler

There’s a huge leap between a piece of evidence being inadmissible in a given court context, and the creator of that video actually being charged with a crime.

Solid point, but not germane to my questions.

Again, one is a COTH rules specific question: are people on here citing/quoting the recordings in order to disparage MHG accusing her of criminal activity and, thus, required to disclose their IRL identity? NB: This is being done exclusively by the people who were pushing that angle in the other thread. [This question is regardless of the legal status of the recordings.]

The other is court of law/defamation suit specific: If a party plays on a TV program audio that was illegal created, or quotes verbatim therefrom, or presents as text a transcript thereof, does that party expose themselves to liability b/c, in a suit arising from that action, they cannot use those illegal recordings to defend themselves in court from the defamation charge?

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@Inigo-montoya

Is something hearsay because you say it is? I’ll give you one clue. I know what hearsay is and I don’t have this information via hearsay…now go guess again!

And btw, is COTH now enforcing the criminal rules of evidence or do you just not want your cronies getting truthful information. What if it were hearsay…but true? Are you trying to suppress information that doesn’t fit into your storyline? Almost everything on here is hearsay. But this, I assure you, is NOT!

Wrong.
COTH can’t suppress anything.
And you haven’t posted anything that is of any significance.

LK may be on trial here on COTH , by some, but that will have absolutely no affect on the outcome of the trial if there is one.

And speaking for myself, and myself only.

The defendant is not guilty of anything. There has been no trial and no verdict .

Next.

[Inigo-montoya]

For the slow readers…I said MB shot two people. That may not mean he will be found guilty. He is presenting 2 defenses FOR SHOOTING PEOPLE.

1. I shot them in self defense

2. I shot them but I was insane.

HE SHOT THEM!

Next.

[Knights_Mom]

@Inigo-montoya

For the slow readers…I said MB shot two people. That may not mean he will be found guilty. He is presenting 2 defenses FOR SHOOTING PEOPLE.

1. I shot them in self defense

2. I shot them but I was insane.

HE SHOT THEM!

Next.

Allegedly.

[Scribbler]

We see people fired all the time for being videotaped acting out in ways embarrassing to the company but not committing an actual crime or even misdemeanor. Whether or not the videos were strictly “legal” seems not to matter after they’ve gone viral on Tiktok.

Also just because a piece of evidence is not admissible in a criminal court does not mean it is not admissable in a civil suit. Two totally different things.

Journalists by and large strive for some amount of balance in these kinds of stories.

Suzy plays a scratchy phone message recording and says its Bob threatening her.

Journalist takes a copy to Bob and asks him about it. Bob says it was a joke, or its not him on the tape, or its been edited.

No one is open to a lawsuit in this situation. Bob has a chance to rebut it on camera. Every once in a while someone tries to stop a show broadcasting but that’s just more publicity.

Journalist has no need to rule definitively. Often a documentary maker lets a certain amount of unresolved cray cray linger because they are after getting a background picture that will interest their audience. Often the subject of the show doesn’t know they seem craycray either.

BTW we have no verified statement on what MB’s defence team is going to say. We won’t know until the trial. The lawsuit against the police and the claim that he does not remember the actual shooting point to some possibilities and limitations. But we don’t know what the defence will argue because that side has maintained silence.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

from what I have read so far, the defense has not argued self defense.

Which i believe would be a much stronger argument than the insanity plea which is the only one I’ve seen and has been discussed elsewhere in other threads.

I do believe RG was wounded in the arm but iirc, but not from a gunshot . I believe I read he was wounded in the struggle with MB. I could be wrong about that

It has been discussed that there 3 bullets in the clip. The 2 chest wounds accounted for. I admit I don’t know where the 3rd bullet came from. Recovered at the scene or from RGs arm I don’t know .

In any case .

It is still alleged as to who actually did it.
It could be the person who shot JR. or
Whoever killed Roger Rabbit.

[3PonyFarm]

This is a general legal question not connected to this particular case. With covid related delay of trials, the person has their official statements made around the time of the incident, what if within the years waiting for the trial, they make a comment to someone that has a discrepancy from the sworn statement.

Could that statement be used to discredit their original statement or does the court just consider the official statement as the best and legal recollection of the event from that person?

I would think slight discrepancies could innocently occur over time especially with these long delays that are happening.

[Scribbler]

I am not sure that crap you say in public outside of a sworn statement has much affect on your testimony. In trial you will be asked to repeat your testimony live so that’s the chance to catch any discrepancies.

Obviously if you were a defendant running around bragging about a crime but pleading innocent, that might be stickier.

In general witnesses should probably be discrete online, as has indeed been the case here. Only the victim is talking.

[Einhorn]

That certainly happens even without CoVid delays. That’s where the attorney can introduce that “reasonable doubt” about the witnesses testimony or evidence.
As it was pointed out earlier, sworn statements are more a thing for civil trials, so there could be discrepancies that have to be dealt with. This is where the skill and preparation of the attorneys comes into play.

[3PonyFarm]

Thank you @Scribbler and @Einhorn. This case has prompted some general questions about the law and trials and it is nice to have feedback from those who are more knowledgeable.

[Mersidoats]

Regarding (potential) witnesses, there is also the assistant Trainer JH, and any number of boarders and clients on the property.

I’m VERY interested to hear their testimony. Aside from maybe one client who has posted on this forum, we haven’t heard from any of them. And that one party has been deliberately vague and is an infrequent poster. That is fine - better to save it for the trial.

[cutter99]

@Inigo-montoya

For the slow readers…I said MB shot two people. That may not mean he will be found guilty. He is presenting 2 defenses FOR SHOOTING PEOPLE.

1. I shot them in self defense

2. I shot them but I was insane.

HE SHOT THEM!

Next.

You can say MB shot two people all you want. Does not mean it is true. How would you know what his defenses are?

Has this been proven?

Has MB said he shot two people?

Pardon many of us here if we are not going to make assumptions before the trial.

[RND]

@cutter99

You can say MB shot two people all you want. Does not mean it is true. How would you know what his defenses are?

Has this been proven?

Has MB said he shot two people?

Pardon many of us here if we are not going to make assumptions before the trial.

LOL you people come here all day every day making up all kinds of HUGELY elaborate fantasy stories about what happened before, during, and after August 7, 2019 using very little to no facts, but when someone mentions that MB shot someone, you all go “Well, we don’t KNOW that for a fact now do we? We have no proof of that so we can’t possibly assume it’s true”.

[Fat_Dinah]

Is Lauren Kanarek posting as Inigo-montoya?

[Mersidoats]

I think most of us are aware that we are speculating on the who/what/where/when/why if this situation. We present it as speculation - qualifying it with “might” “could” “maybe” “possibly”, etc.

So, yes, he allegedly shot someone.

[trubandloki]

@Fat_Dinah

Is Lauren Kanarek posting as Inigo-montoya?

Mod 1 says no.
IM is male.

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@cutter99

@Inigo-montoya

For the slow readers…I said MB shot two people. That may not mean he will be found guilty. He is presenting 2 defenses FOR SHOOTING PEOPLE.

1. I shot them in self defense

2. I shot them but I was insane.

HE SHOT THEM!

Next.

You can say MB shot two people all you want. Does not mean it is true. How would you know what his defenses are?

Has this been proven?

Has MB said he shot two people?

Pardon many of us here if we are not going to make assumptions before the trial.

At least two of the articles posted with these threads have reported that Blinikas has said the defense will be insanity and self defense. This implies that the defense is not going to attempt to claim he didn’t fire the shots, but rather that he is not guilty of attempted murder because he shot in self defense and/or was temporarily insane.

If you’re not going to accept reported statements from the defense attorney, then I can see why you need to wait for the trial.

[Sdel]

@CurrentlyHorseless

At least two of the articles posted with these threads have reported that Blinikas has said the defense will be insanity and self defense.

So, exactly why are be being made fun of for speculating about this possibility for the last two years???

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@RND

@cutter99

You can say MB shot two people all you want. Does not mean it is true. How would you know what his defenses are?

Has this been proven?

Has MB said he shot two people?

Pardon many of us here if we are not going to make assumptions before the trial.

LOL you people come here all day every day making up all kinds of HUGELY elaborate fantasy stories about what happened before, during, and after August 7, 2019 using very little to no facts, but when someone mentions that MB shot someone, you all go “Well, we don’t KNOW that for a fact now do we? We have no proof of that so we can’t possibly assume it’s true”.

Does the phrase “due process” ring a bell?

Anyone may have an opinion.
The DA decided to try the case because he believes he has enough evidence to secure a conviction.

On COTH , most people agree with the DA.
There are many theories and speculation about the events that took place that day .

Which we allowed to do within limits of the TOS.

There is only one thing that has been legally proven. That LK was shot. End of.

And maybe that the gun used belonged to RC.

Other than that , there is no other legal proof.

When and if it is decided either by a trial by jury or if the defendant changes his plea then the defendant will be found guilty.

Based on the lack of information and evidence right now, the defendant is not guilty.

If he is found guilty he will pay for his crime .

And just so there won’t be any doubt, if it happened the way the DA says it happened, which he has to prove by the way , then the defendant was completely wrong .
Unless he felt his life was threatened, there was no reason to shoot the victim.

[MHM]

@Mersidoats

Regarding (potential) witnesses, there is also the assistant Trainer JH

I feel like this may have come up in a previous thread, but if so, I don’t recall the answer off the top of my head.

Where did JH end up when all the dust settled?