Sigh - more designer breeds

[Bicoastal]

@DownYonder

What the heck is an “Exotic Bulldog?” I wanted to ask him but he was in a conversation with the vet and I didn’t get a chance to talk to him.

There’s a whole sub-culture of extreme/exotic bully “breeds” classified by size with their own parent breed club. Standard, Classic, Pocket, Extreme. https://americanbullydaily.com/types-of-american-bullies/

[Bicoastal]

@Rackonteur

So, with all this talk of designer “breeds,” what should/do we think of “legitimate” breeders who breed to the standards of noses so squashed the dogs have major respiratory problems? The breed standard of a head so big the puppies cannot be born naturally but required caesarean?

I’ll bite. And I’ve been in the AKC breed ring as well as several performance rings. I was the proud owner of an AKC CH sire of merit. I find it unethical and refuse to support brachy breeds by purchasing a dog that BF very, very much wants. He has his heart set on an “Olde English Bulldogge” believing the PR that they are healthier than the AKC-recognized English Bulldog. I just can’t. It wouldn’t even be safe for the poor dog to join mine on our routine walks. That’s disgusting manipulation of man’s best friend.

You may like to go down the rabbit hole of Pedigree Dogs Exposed. You’ll find more info about Britain’s regulations of some of the more extreme breeds at shows. https://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

[Rackonteur]

Thanks, @Bicoastal. I will look at that link.
I had not heard of the Olde English Bulldogge before now. I’ve just Googled them; they don’t look very much like the picture of a real old Bulldog shown here:

6 Popular Dog Breeds Before And After 100 Years Of Breeding

[Rackonteur]

@Bicoastal
P.S. Thank you again for the link. You have given me some good reading matter for today. I have just been reading about Colonel Hancock and Mastiffs (one of the articles in the blog you linked), and now I am looking at photos of some lovely terriers (I won’t post the name because they’re not “recognized” and who would want to ruin them?)

[DawnJL]

Lots of interesting articles by Colonel David Hancock in this archive He writes from the perspective of someone rooted in UK hunting dog culture, but he covers a lot of ground. Fair warning, his opinions regarding modern show dog breeding are largely unfavorable.

I was looking for some Lurcher information, and stumbled on that site which does include some Lurcher based articles.

[S1969]

I could write a blog post showing just the opposite. It would be easy to find 6 old photos of dogs with bad conformation and show how they have been improved in the last 100 years. My point is that this goes back to the breed club being expert in this, not a random blog writer. Unless you know that the 100 year old photos were dogs who were considered correct to the written standard, there is no point.

And, you need to actually stack the dog correctly to compare. The GSD photos show one overstretched, the other understretched. The whole point of stacking is to compare apples to apples.

[Irish_Ei_s]

Wonderful info wonderfully presented.

Thank you.

[Willesdon]

@Bicoastal

@Willesdon

The tradition/story is that when only landowners were permitted to own sight hounds for hunting, and other dogs would have a toe clipped to stop them hunting for rabbit, hare or deer

I’d love to read/learn about this. First I’ve heard of toe clipping. Any historical readings I can find online?

Use “dogs in forest law” as your search term and something will come up e.g. www.modernmolosser.com .

“Forest” in medieval terms referred to a set of laws that controlled game hunting and habitat management over extensive areas of England. It did not refer to a place full of trees. Dogs obviously were needed by working people but the game very firmly belonged to the monarch and hunting rights were jealously guarded. So dogs were “lawed” by having toes cut off which stopped them taking game but didn’t stop them working.

[Jenerationx]

Someone on my FB friends is getting a “black phantom mini aussie-doodle”… Apparently “phantom markings” are rust patches like a rottie or doberman. Why are we creating new vocabulary for what’s a natural flipping pattern and not some “exotic color.” I can’t even. $5,000 for this thing and she doesn’t know if they health test, but they’re raised with kids! YAY!

[DownYonder]

@Bicoastal

There’s a whole sub-culture of extreme/exotic bully “breeds” classified by size with their own parent breed club. Standard, Classic, Pocket, Extreme. https://americanbullydaily.com/types-of-american-bullies/

Ick, Ick, and Ick. Why do people think they have to create monstrosities like an Extreme or XL “American Bully”?

What the heck is wrong with a well-bred American Staffordshire Terrier?

[Willesdon]

Interesting how different the “American Staffordshire Terrier” is from the British version. Cosmetically, it is illegal to crop ears and tails in the UK.

[Kemosabe]

@Jenerationx

Someone on my FB friends is getting a “black phantom mini aussie-doodle”… Apparently “phantom markings” are rust patches like a rottie or doberman. Why are we creating new vocabulary for what’s a natural flipping pattern and not some “exotic color.” I can’t even. $5,000 for this thing and she doesn’t know if they health test, but they’re raised with kids! YAY!

Ohmygod…I did do a quick search about “phantom aussie doodles” and the markings for a phantom are indicated by contrasting colors around the eyes, neck, legs, paws, stomach. The markings around the eyes, etc can be of any color (copper, white, brown).

The world does not need Aussie Doodles in any way shape or form. Want an Aussie, get an Aussie. Want a poodle, get a poodle.

[trubandloki]

@Willesdon

Interesting how different the “American Staffordshire Terrier” is from the British version. Cosmetically, it is illegal to crop ears and tails in the UK.

I would guess that the dog in that photo has its tail, you are just not seeing it. It is not a breed that I typically see with a docked tail.

[sportyspicepony]

@Bicoastal

The toy breeds from mills and BYBs are often quite larger than standard because larger bitches have an easier time whelping naturally and surviving the experience .

sorry if this is a dumb question, but isn’t this kind of an improvement if the “breed standard” is a dog so small it can’t have babies?

I see tons of chihuahua types in shelters around here and often hear nothing but negative things about them because they are a breed with a lot of stigma, similar to doodles in that it’s more often than not a problem with the owners than the dogs, so out of curiosity I looked up chihuahua breeders in south carolina. I was SHOCKED to find that chi puppies are selling for $4000-5000!!! Nothing wrong with that on its face, I just have always thought of them as kind of a “dime a dozen” dog similar to pits, and didn’t think anyone would actually pay that much for one lol. However the breeder I looked at had a lot of ~unusual~ colors that would jack up the price, like a “chocolate merle” with blue eyes and whatnot.

I say all this as a diehard chihuahua lover by the way. My dog is one of the bigger 15 lb mixes and according to his DNA test he actually doesn’t have a ton of chihuahua in him, but I’ll probably continue getting the little medium sized chi mixes for as long as i live because i simply love them lol.

[DownYonder]

@Willesdon

Interesting how different the “American Staffordshire Terrier” is from the British version. Cosmetically, it is illegal to crop ears and tails in the UK.

@trubandloki

I would guess that the dog in that photo has its tail, you are just not seeing it. It is not a breed that I typically see with a docked tail.

Correct - tail is not docked. Here is info from the AKC standard about ears and tails.

Ears
Cropped or uncropped, the latter preferred. Uncropped ears should be short and held rose or half prick. Full drop to be penalized.

Tail
Short in comparison to size, low set, tapering to a fine point; not curled or held over back. Not docked.

And a few photos.

Like I said elsewhere - well-bred and well-managed AmStaffs are really great dogs. There is no need to defile the breed by crossing it with something else - and ESPECIALLY when the result is something as ugly as an “American Bully” / “Exotic Bulldog.”

[S1969]

@sportyspicepony

I was SHOCKED to find that chi puppies are selling for $4000-5000!!! Nothing wrong with that on its face, I just have always thought of them as kind of a “dime a dozen” dog similar to pits, and didn’t think anyone would actually pay that much for one lol. However the breeder I looked at had a lot of ~unusual~ colors that would jack up the price, like a “chocolate merle” with blue eyes and whatnot.

Good breeders don’t breed for color, typically. I would not assume that a reputable breeder charges that price.

As far as Chis being too small to have babies - that’s not the case. It’s that they need special care that BYBs are not able (or find it unprofitable) to provide.

[DownYonder]

@S1969

I could write a blog post showing just the opposite. It would be easy to find 6 old photos of dogs with bad conformation and show how they have been improved in the last 100 years. My point is that this goes back to the breed club being expert in this, not a random blog writer. Unless you know that the 100 year old photos were dogs who were considered correct to the written standard, there is no point.

And, you need to actually stack the dog correctly to compare. The GSD photos show one overstretched, the other understretched. The whole point of stacking is to compare apples to apples.

Great post!

[sportyspicepony]

Thanks! Makes sense

[DownYonder]

@Jenerationx

Someone on my FB friends is getting a “black phantom mini aussie-doodle”… Apparently “phantom markings” are rust patches like a rottie or doberman. Why are we creating new vocabulary for what’s a natural flipping pattern and not some “exotic color.” I can’t even. $5,000 for this thing and she doesn’t know if they health test, but they’re raised with kids! YAY!

You know, I get it that some people might want something “different” than what everyone else has. I am the same way, which is why I deliberately sought out a dog from a breed that is not commonly seen as pets. I didn’t want to be one of those people with just another “Doodle” or Lab or Golden or Bully breed or Cavalier, or Schnauzer, yada-yada-yada.

But as I said way back in post #39 (Feb 6)…

@DownYonder

with nearly 200 breeds recognized by AKC, there is surely at least one breed more suitable for most aspiring dog owners than an F1 (or even F2 or F3) mix of two different breeds."

And most of those are produced by dedicated breeders who are breeding to a written standard and who have their stock evaluated by knowledgeable experts and who also do performance and health testing on their stock. And they probably charge a lot less than $5000 for their puppies.

[DownYonder]

@S1969

Good breeders don’t breed for color, typically.

Just a clarification for those that don’t know. Some (many) breed standards specify colors and color combinations that are allowed and those that are not allowed. Good breeders who are trying to adhere to the standard do consider color.

I’ve used this example in other threads, but to illustrate: The standard for Cardigan Welsh Corgis allows blue merle but the standard for Pembroke Welsh Corgis considers blue merle coat colors to be a very serious fault.

A more specific example is the standard for Doberman Pinschers:
Color and Markings: Allowed Colors-Black, red, blue, and fawn (Isabella). Markings-Rust,
sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and
feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding ½ square inch, permissible.
Disqualifying Fault - Dogs not of an allowed color.

So a “white” Doberman would be disqualified in an AKC show, as would a Doberman with a large white patch on its chest. A reputable Doberman breeder would therefore do everything they can to ensure that their breeding stock will not produce non-allowable color characteristics.