Lol, yes, exactly so. And the same can apply to anyone who breeds dogs. Even the doodle people.
But the american breeders have ruined so many good breeds: an english cocker spaniel is a quite different dog than american. And the american Alsatians (German shepards) should not be a breed anymore, they are all crippled and neurotic. And the pugs / French bull dogs I’ve seen in the USA are nothing but animal abuse.The closed stud books and breeding only for looks or traits are not good for dogs, imho. I would be far, far LESS inclined to take a dog that was AKC registered than a puppy from a neighbors good farm dog even if it was a mutt.
Back in the day we got all our family pets that way- someone we knew had a dog that had pups and it was a nice dog so you got one, and 99.9% of the time it was also nice. Some were registered or planned and some were not (most accidents were farm dog/ gun dog crosses when they failed to keep them apart sufficiently). We also had some pure bred dogs but again, all from friends/ acquaintances dogs not strangers.
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This argument doesn’t hold up. Some of the AKC registered breeds are ancient and relatively unchanged. And the “they are all crippled and neurotic” line is so tiring. Based on what?
It’s not “Americans” ruining dog breeds.
I certainly would not presume that a Doodle registry would be better than existing breed clubs with standards that have been unchanged for decades.
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Sure. It would be nice to be able to verify though. That’s my point. Especially when a litter is available - I guarantee you that if either of the breeders you mentioned were advertising, they would have the OFA score in the ad.
The argument holds up just by looking at typical examples of many breeds from both sides of the Atlantic: spaniels, alsatians, doberman, most collie breeds. I bet most breeders could tell at a glance if the dog was from one place or another so that. And photographic comparison shows there has been huge changes over time in AKC breeds.
I think you will find there is a general consensus amongst european breeders and owners that the AKC dogs are bred for exaggerated traits to be scored on in the show ring that are not so good for functionality and also they have far more health problems. There is a divide between “show” and “pet” dogs that is really not present in Europe in the same way.
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Some breeds have changed, or split from the continental breed. Others have changed very little.
“Ruin” is a subjective term. I prefer the American Brittany to the Epagneul Breton, but they are essentially considered separate breeds. I’m not sure one is “better” than the other - just different.
So I’ve spent the last several years trying to source a puppy. My regular breeder took some time off.
I reached out to a kennel that’s very well recognized in my breed. Frequent top ten dogs over the last 50+ years. You can find this kennel in the pedigree of most of the dogs out there showing. I’m sure you know the type and can think of a couple kennels in your breed that are similar.
Website is out of date, but whatever. Minimal FB presence. And whenever pairings were discussed, call names were used–I really had no idea what dogs were being used. They certainly didn’t provide all the screening info. It probably would have come with the puppy. Yes, I did ask. Communication was…lacking.
They seemed perfectly happy to place a puppy with me, said it would only be maybe 6 months before they expected one to be available. Offered a male a couple times and a young adult bitch once. I still never knew how they were bred besides call names. Getting info was pulling teeth. Two years later, I went elsewhere.
That’s not a terribly unique thing, you know? I think that sort of “you have to be in the club” problem is even discussed up thread.
Yeah, I agree, more info on the website would be nice. She does include it on some dogs, like the bitch I screenshot above. But that’s absolutely not an issue unique to doodles–it’s a problem for a whole lot of very good breeders, too.
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@Simkie, under those circumstances, I’d have gone elsewhere too. But I’m just curious, did you ask? Did you make it known how important that info was to you?
Speaking as someone who used to breed and show Poodles, it quickly became clear to me that the vast majority of (pet) puppy buyers weren’t really interested in all the info I had to offer. Most of it just sounded like so much gobbledegook to them. OFA? CERF? Important names in a pedigree? No interest. They just wanted to play with puppies.
When I bought a puppy for the first time in 30 years, I switched breeds and went to a show to meet breeders. As soon as I found someone whose dogs I loved, the first thing I said was, “I used to show dogs, I know all about genetic testing, what do you test for?” When I arrived at the breeder’s house to meet the puppy she had available, all the different certificates were set out in a row on her counter and we started there before we even saw her dogs.
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I did ask, a few times. I didn’t insist–I would’ve, if we’d gotten to the point where a puppy was actually looking likely. I shared my history of purchasing from an equally storied kennel and showing a little. I presented myself as a buyer who does care about those things, and who appreciated the care they took with their screening & proving of dogs before breeding. I certainly came into it knowing the history & reputation of the kennel, and had looked up the current dogs on the OFA site, so was fairly familiar with the landscape. But still, when they referred to the “Josh x Sammy” litter (making up names, I really don’t remember the real ones) I had absolutely no idea which dogs those were.
Overall, it was kind of a weird experience. Normally I’d say that they found something about me as an owner unappealing and were trying to make me go away, but they did offer me several dogs that were not what I was looking for (yeah, I was very clear about that up front, too.)
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It’s a Cockadoodledoo 
I do think this is common among people who are heavily invested in the breed/breeding scene and assume everyone else is too. I often have conversations with a breeder friend who tells me who is being bred to whom (not her own breeding) and who won various wins, etc. and I have no idea who she’s talking about. But I don’t really care all the time either.
When a litter is actually available most of the breeders I know announce on Facebook, but if you’re not friends with them you might now know. Those announcements typically include a group of photos which usually include the pedigrees, health clearances, and at least one photo of each dog.
But - as has been said - lots of breeders don’t have a website, or even a business FB page. However, since many of them aren’t actually advertising “puppies for sale”, it’s not a big deal - they can sell their puppies through word of mouth.
Some of those breeders have website, some list on the AKC Marketplace, but not all.
I do appreciate that if you’re looking for a quality, well-bred puppy, it might be hard to find one without a connection or two. I wish our breed club would take this more seriously; we have a breeder referral contact person, if a puppy buyer were some sort of internet super-sleuth and could actually find that name on our website. But more likely than not - they won’t. That’s a problem.
Yeah, I was friends with that breeder on facebook, and that didn’t happen beyond the call names.
The breeder that I did find a puppy with is really active on FB and posts tons of puppy pics. She included the registered names of the sire and dam on her latest litter announcement but nothing else. Only shared call names for the previous one. She included all of the screening info, copy of the pedigree, page of achievements on the sire/dam in the puppy packet.
The breeder that I’ve used in the past isn’t on FB or the web at all and her dogs go solely via word of mouth AFAIK.
So it’s absolutely not SOP to share all of that. Maybe younger breeders who are more comfortable with tech are better at it, though.
But harping on the doodle lady because her website isn’t robust feels like the pot calling the kettle black. We have this issue in spades, too.
Did anyone besides me picture Robin Williams as Mork from Ork when reading Morkie?
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I’m not harping on her about her website. I’m harping on the lack of health testing.
Because I really doubt that it is being done beyond the bare minimum for registration, which, to be honest - aren’t stringent.
I am ok with a 4 month prelim for registration, but not for breeding. There is no reason to believe that there is anything else being done, since it looks like only one dog on the website is in the OFA database.
Personally I don’t think a dog should have to have hip clearance to be registered. It is either registered by virtue of parentage, or it’s not. A dog not having clear hips should not make it “unregistered”…it’s a registry.
Whether you should breed it or not is another story. And not one that anyone should make based on any health status at 16 weeks. There is no reason to believe that these dogs are being bred based on any selection process whatsoever, other than “I’ll bet people will pay a lot for this one, look how adorable this picture is.”
Lots of well-bred puppies make great pets, but aren’t sound enough in one way or another to be used for breeding. That’s what conformation shows are for; that’s what health testing is for.
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What? What are you talking about? In the pic here that you have screenshot.
WALA Member Breeders are required to submit a Hip Clearance from one of the three options listed below prior to mating that dog.
WALA Member Breeders are required to submit an Elbow Clearance from one of the two options listed below prior to mating that dog.
WALA Member Breeders must DNA Profile all breeding stock prior to registering a litter.
Please tell me where it says anywhere that any screening is required for registration or that registration is pulled for bad health clearances.
I’m not sure why you think this particular breeder isn’t screening her dogs, besides what you consider a bad website. If she’s registering the puppies in this registry, she is screening the parents in some way, which is a whole hell of a lot more care than probably 99% of people producing these animals.
Yes, I agree that some way to test & prove breeding stock would be an improvement. But you have to start somewhere, and I, at least, appreciate that this registry, and the others like this (there are a few) are making an attempt to inject responsible breeding practice into the doodle craze.
Doodles aren’t going to go away. That’s not an option, it’s far too late to stuff that genie back in the bottle. I’d rather see any amount of health testing than no health testing. Is it perfect? No. Is it a START? Yes.
I am mixed up; I thought they all had to have this clearance to be registered too, but I guess not.
I guess I don’t understand why they would accept a prelim hip clearance at as young as 16 weeks then.
Is this better than nothing? Maybe. Maybe not. The breeder shown is a flat out puppy mill. Charging $3200 for “multigenerational” Labradoodles - which seems to be only the result of cranking out puppies like crazy, since they have apparently not been breeding more than a handful of years. They had 3 litters born on May 10th!
If you’re not showing or competing to prove the quality of the dogs (not even in obedience or CGC?), not conducting health testing on adult breeding dogs…I don’t understand why the puppies are so expensive.
Obviously if people are willing to buy them…I guess they have marketed their product well. I think the registration in the fledgling breed club gives the impression of stringent health and soundness but they don’t seem to actually be much of anything. Prelim OFA tests are generally used to decide whether to bother showing a dog, not whether to breed it.
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If you think nothing is better than any attempt to screen, I guess we’re just too far apart to discuss.
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I guess I might have a different opinion if this registry was more established and/or if their database details were available to the public. They aren’t a registered non-profit, at least not that I can find. So…that’s weird. Are they a for-profit registry?
There is another parent club for this breed - Australian Labradoodle Association of America (ALAA) that has a registry. Apparently 88,000 registered dogs.
I would highly disagree with the Doberman as an example. The AKC and FCI standards are nearly identical, with the EU upper weight standard slightly higher. The issue right now is eastern European breeders exporting over sized Dobermans, that appear more Dane than Dobie. And the general public is buying into the hype. The Doberman is to be a medium sized dog with a very athletic build, you know a WORKING breed. These 100+ pound dogs are about as athletic as a plow horse.
There is also a difference in how they are shown. I liken it to showing a saddle horse vs a hunter in hand. Here’s an AKC champion and probably why folks think American dobies are ‘so’ small:
But guess what, that dog is only 10 months and look how it is presented. That stance and arched neck are training, just like training a saddlebred or morgan inhand. You can’t start many of the working sports until a Dobie is 18+ months, so makes sense to compete for conformation titles while they are pups.
FYI, here is that dog now:
Here’s a nice Italian CH, not sure of age here but still considered a young dog. Conformation and size, I don’t think these two young dogs are all that different. Just handled differently, and of course the ears/tails.
My pup is a nice mix of working (IGP) and classic AKC show lines. There are many breeders doing it right.
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Yes, I linked this registry above, in a response to you. In this post.
