Sigh - more designer breeds

[DownYonder]

The Pyrenees/Poodle breeder was referring to them as “Pyr-Doodles.” And I’m betting she is doing it because “giant” white PoodleDoodles have been all the rage these past few years (crosses of Standard Poodles with English Creme Retrievers, i.e., very large Goldens with a cream or white coat).

She must have lost her Creme bitch or studdog so decided to use a Pyrenees instead. And I wouldn’t be surprised if she got it from the shelter. God help those poor puppies get into homes where the owners have a clue about how to raise something like that.

[Mango20]

My personal beefs with doodles are that I just don’t like the curly hair look, and that while I love mutts, I think it’s ridiculous to pay “designer dog” prices for one.

I saw a new one yesterday on the doggyDNA subreddit - their dog, which looked mostly like a poorly bred standard poodle, was 75% standard poodle and 25% Afghan. An Afgandoodle? That was a new one for me (the current owner got her as a rescue).

r/DoggyDNA - Our 1 yo. rescue Roxanne aka Roxy's results are back, and she's...

[DownYonder]

@Mango20

An Afgandoodle?

We saw one at the park last summer. I am pretty good at recognizing breeds but when we saw it coming toward us, I could not determine if it was an Afghan or a Poodle. It had a curly Poodle coat, but its body shape suggested Afghan (although some poorly bred poodles look like that). What really gave it away to me was it had a perfect Afghan donut tail. The owner at first said it was a “poodle,” but then laughingly admitted it was a Afghan/Poodle cross.

[GoodTimes]

I actually have an Aussie Berner cross. She was 1.5yo when I got her, she needed to be rehomed.
I definitely don’t condone random crosses. Dogs should be purpose bred.

Saying that, she’s a lovely dog. Weighs around 75lbs, tall and leggy. Blue Merle. She’s very active though, and vocal. In the wrong environment I imagine she would bark nonstop.
She’s almost eight now, and we just got back from skijoring a few miles. Pre pandemic she was a certified therapy dog with St John Ambulance.

I was looking for a GSP at the time, but she kind of fell into my lap.
Next dog will be a GSP. I’d really like to get back into hunting with my own dog, and I’d like something with more endurance.

[strangewings]

I almost posted a question about COI in doodles last night. I am glad to see an example. If people are looking to doodles for hybrid vigor over purebreds, they may be sorely disappointed if they look at COI. Don’t poodles as a breed have a notoriously high average coi? Which is an argument against carelessly bred dogs, pure or cross, rather than an argument against poodles or doodles generally, but it should be something people looking for Doodles are aware of: those dogs may still be much more inbred than carefully bred purebred dogs. The dog in the link has a coi more than 3× higher than my dog (a pointer)

For those of you who breed, do you research coi across testmatings when selecting a stud/bitch? Do you have guidance from your breed org about management of coi across the breed?

I was looking at a pedigree site for my breed and saw about 6-8 gens back in my dogs pedigrees, there was a lot of crossing 30%+ coi with 3-5% coi, but closer up it normalizes to low teens, which is higher than ideal, though still not terrible. Any idea if this is common? Probably the timing correlates to the appearance of the breed in this region and corresponding start of influential breeding programs in the area. I learned a little about something similar with arabs ages ago i think?

[S1969]

@strangewings

Don’t poodles as a breed have a notoriously high average coi?

I’m not sure there is any way to know the average COI for an entire breed. Obviously different breeders have very different standards, and there could be an individual dog with a high COI but used in a breeding program for a very specific purpose.

@strangewings

For those of you who breed, do you research coi across testmatings when selecting a stud/bitch?

I am not a breeder, but my oldest dog has been used for stud service, so I’m kind of in the breeding world. My understanding is that COI in itself isn’t all that useful or important - because all wild dog packs probably have pretty high COIs - clearly it’s not a death sentence.

What is a bad thing is high COI without health testing and other selection criteria to eliminate the ones that might pass on hereditary conditions that are undesirable. In a natural selection situation, those poor specimens are either not bred because they lack some quality, or actually get sick or injured and die and are eliminated from the breeding pool. With resources available now, as well as ways to track pedigrees, breeders can use other tools rather than just COI.

That said, the breeders I know are careful to keep the COI fairly low, but that doesn’t mean that a deliberate match might not have a higher COI from time to time - sometimes those are intentional to “double up” on particularly good traits, and then go back out again.

[beowulf]

I hate to admit it, but I am a big fan of Goldendoodles/Labradoodles for the average family home. With one disclaimer: I wish more breeders told these people that these dogs needed to be regularly groomed!!

I would never breed – or buy – a doodle myself. However, I’m pleasantly surprised by the kindness and intelligence of these dogs, even when owned by clueless people. They are low maintenance in most respects otherwise.

With them being F1 crosses I wonder how hard it would be to establish them as a breed.

I used to dislike crosses. There is the concern of them ending up in bad situations, or flooding the already overflowing rescue/adoption pipeline. However I think if this is done responsibly by educated people, the risks are minimal.

The farmers we get hay from have been breeding Aussie x BC dogs for generations. I’ve met dozens of them now over the years and have been tempted, even, to get one myself. They make perfect farm dogs for their needs and they’re beautiful, too.

[lenapesadie]

Well, I’d take more poodle crosses over more pit bulls. In my area, it’s the latter that are clogging up shelters. Or heaven forbid, idiots thinking Mals are cute and breeding those.

Doodles are fairly well established here and I see a fair number of F2 litters advertised. It’s my very rough understanding that through selection, F2 and further generations produce a more consistent type. They are quite popular for service work I’m told as shedding is an obstacle for public work and straight poodles can be more dog than is ideal for the work.

I’m not into dogs that don’t come from health tested families with performance records myself, but the general public seems less particular.

[S1969]

@beowulf

With them being F1 crosses I wonder how hard it would be to establish them as a breed.

Since these crosses have been ongoing for 3 decades, no one should still be breeding F1s.

Whether they would ever be established as a “breed” requires a group of people who form a breed club that defines the standard, and at a certain point of creation, the stud book is closed, meaning breeding may only be done from those dogs already produced from the cross. I don’t know how many generations that would take, but quite a lot. Certainly 20+ years is enough to establish that breeding pool and closing the stud book to obtain recognition.

I think there is a national club for goldendoodle and/or labradoodle, but I don’t believe they have been recognized by any kennel club. But they might keep their own registry. I will google around a bit.

Essentially that means that the breed does exist, and that anyone who is producing F1s is just a crappy backyard breeder producing mutts.

[OverandOnward]

@Willesdon

We import rescue dogs from Eastern Europe!

Rescue dogs are being sent all over the country here in the U.S. as well.

There is actually a kind of catalog of available dogs, you can pick one and it will be transported (along with other dogs) to your local office where you can pick it up. I know someone in Wisconsin who has an adorable Cairn-type terrier from a rescue that flew the dog to her from a Texas shelter, along with other dogs for other adopters.

I don’t know all the how’s & why’s, but apparently dog types that frequently turn up in shelters in one part of the country as practically unadoptable will be in demand in another part. Someone is moving the supply of shelter dogs around for better efficiency in successful adoptions.

[MsM]

My understanding is that F2 generation can have more variation. Since both parents have genetics from two breeds, the offspring could get much more of one breed or the other in the genetic lottery. It takes many generations of breeding and selection (and nowadays genetic testing) to start getting a consistent type in the offspring.

[lenapesadie]

It’s my understanding that folks really into Doodle breeding categorize the phenotypes for coat type. And select breeding pairs based on the more desirable coat types to produce more consistency in the coat types expressed in future generations.

[Simkie]

This is also an interesting perspective: the guy who “created” doodles very much regrets it:

Labradoodle creator says it's his 'life's regret'

“I find that the biggest majority [of labradoodles] are either crazy or have a hereditary problem.”

Labradoodle Inventor Now Regrets Creating a ‘Monster’

"Conron said he was surprised at how difficult it was to find anyone to take the other two puppies. Many people did not like that they were crossbreeds.

So Conron decided to create a special name for his creation: labradoodle. He went to the media to get publicity for this new dog. “It was a gimmick,” he said on the podcast. “They were crossbred, nobody wanted them. But everybody wanted a labradoodle. Same dog, different name."

[GoodTimes]

I just googled doodle breeders in my province.
The first one that showed up breeds Labradoodles, bernedoodles, and sheepadoodles. Puppies are $4000 plus tax, $4500 plus tax for a merle or tricolour.

She had over 50 breeding females in guardian homes!!! And over 15 males. I’m so disgusted. While she does health test there are no photos, videos, or descriptions of the dogs. It’s just a mish mash of fluffy dogs.
No conformation photos. Nothing documenting athleticism, intelligence, or temperament.

[Simkie]

@GoodTimes

Puppies are $4000 plus tax, $4500 plus tax for a merle or tricolour.

Barf. I pay less than HALF THAT for a health tested, parents proven puppy from one of the top breeders in the country for my breed.

[lenapesadie]

That’s ridiculous pricing for unstarted pups. I’m familiar with older pups started in a job going for that (and more) but for a baby puppy? Crazy high.

Good pups from titled and tested parents in my current breed run less than half that currently on limited registration.

[mommy_peanut]

@GoodTimes

I just googled doodle breeders in my province.
The first one that showed up breeds Labradoodles, bernedoodles, and sheepadoodles. Puppies are $4000 plus tax, $4500 plus tax for a merle or tricolour.

She had over 50 breeding females in guardian homes!!! And over 15 males. I’m so disgusted. While she does health test there are no photos, videos, or descriptions of the dogs. It’s just a mish mash of fluffy dogs.
No conformation photos. Nothing documenting athleticism, intelligence, or temperament.

Disgusting, yet many will pay those outrageous prices for an ill bred mutt. Just so they can brag about how much their ridiculous “fur baby” cost

[S1969]

@MsM

My understanding is that F2 generation can have more variation. Since both parents have genetics from two breeds, the offspring could get much more of one breed or the other in the genetic lottery. It takes many generations of breeding and selection (and nowadays genetic testing) to start getting a consistent type in the offspring.

Of course there will be variation, because they are just a hodgepodge of genes. So they need to be selected for the correct types and then bred back for those things. Which is impossible if there was no plan for “type” and correctness.

And yes, there are lots of DNA options for identifying coat color, etc., but not for head shape, topline, movement, angulation, temperament, etc. That’s the whole point of a dog show. Again, though, it requires a plan and a standard.

I am pretty sure no one considered (or is working on) a “breed standard” for the Pomski or the Weimadoodle.

[Rackonteur]

@DownYonder

Or a Corgi with a Shetland Sheepdog. Like, why? What is the purpose?

Well, I suppose there is some weird logic in that one – crossing two herding breeds. But if someone wants a furry Corgi with a long tail, why not just buy a Cardigan?

[Rackonteur]

Most dog owners I have known have no idea that there is such a thing as a standard for their dog’s breed. I remember one young woman who bought a “blond” Cocker Spaniel.
People who own “golden” Labs.
“Doxies” (Dachshunds) with merle/ticked coats (and the owners have no idea what a doxy is – they think it’s a cute name).

Right now I have a lovely neighbor who recently bought a Chihuahua puppy. This woman apparently is familiar with the Chihuahua breed standard.
Her puppy is so (understandably) small that another neighbor think she’s a “teacup” Chihuahua; still another neighbor thinks that her own 15-20-lb. “Chihuahua” is purebred.

Most dog owners I have known are like some of the horse owners I have met in the past couple of years who apparently have no idea how to lead a horse, how to fit a saddle or bit a horse.

Those of you who say dog owners need to be educated, I agree with you. But how do you educate people who don’t even know such an education exists?