People who like doodles…? No, the problem is the breeder who is producing these dogs indiscriminately. Which is clearly stated.
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That’s not really my biggest issue with doodle greeders. It’s that they misrepresent the puppies as “health tested” and charge exorbitant prices for them because they claim they are “healthier” than purebred dogs. When in reality, they have randomly selected the parents (who are typically not ideal specimens in any way), ignore the majority of potential health issues, and then sell them for a lot of money to many people who are unprepared to own a dog at all. Some (like the few I looked at the other day) don’t even call it “selling” - they market them as “adoptions.” 
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That’s fair, and I share these sentiments, incl that eye roll.
I’ve seen ads for puppies on next door listing “adoption fee”. I’m sure its to skirt the social media rules.
I digress but this was my skepticism towards anti-puppymill legislation that is getting popular. The law affecting my locality outlaws pet stores from selling puppies and directly suggests stores call it adoption instead. Since there is no legal definition for animal adoption, it just becomes semantics.
I support the anti-puppymill legislation. As a teen, I worked at a mall store called Docktor Pet Center. It was horrible. My job was to clean cages and medicate all the puppies that were flown in from Missouri. I was only a kid, and I had no idea. So many were sick…
Most pet stores now (due to this legislation, largely) offer their space to local shelters and rescues. Far, far preferable. So although “adoption” may be fraught terminology, it probably is more accurate, considering the source. And even here in Amish puppymill central, the only dogs I see in pet establishments are extra showings from shelters and rescues. And if I haven’t made it clear prior, I would never tell anyone to “adopt, don’t shop.” However, if you are going to buy a puppy from a cardboard sign on the highway as opposed to researching a good breeder, I’ll be a bit less sympathetic if things go wrong.
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She moved the same way with that kink in her back in a much less electric setting.
Again, they’re on the most strict watch list across the pond. I don’t believe many breeds are on that list. They are known for hip dysplasia and spine issues in the LS area resulting in back pain. It doesn’t take a scientific study to see the slope of the back and the angulation of the hinds and say “well no wonder there are back issues…”
Now, to show my ignorance - what about that gait makes it anything but a trot that looks intensely over tracked due to the entire leg from the hock down nearly on the ground? I don’t see any special footfall but maybe I’m missing it?
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What I don’t get - you want a trainable, friendly dog. You want a dog that has hair, not fur. You want an athletic dog who can keep up with the family. You want a good sized dog, that you can easily take hiking, or running.
You just described a standard poodle. Why cross the guaranteed bet with something that does not meet those qualities, and take the risk the pup will be universally unwanted?
If one or more of those qualities are not deal breakers, then you’re just being selfish in not finding something suitable that already exists.
But hey, you want to defend an expensive mutt out of not-top-quality stock, be my guest. But don’t try and justify it. Just admit “I wanted a []doodle because it’s the “in” thing” and get it over with.
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But how did the dog win the breed at Crufts with a kink in its back? Did all the GSDs look worse?
My point here is mainly that unless you’re actively involved with the breed, it’s hard to look at 3 dogs and make generalizations. GSDs are ranked #42 for breeds with hip dysplasia, just ahead of Golden Retrievers (#47) , who don’t typically have high hocks and sloping toplines. So…is there any connection at all?
But look at their registration numbers (Goldens as well). Because of their popularity, it’s very difficult to make generalizations about any specific breeding based on these numbers. For all we know, the show Goldens and GSDs are the least likely to have dysplasia.
And, wasn’t it you who was getting an English Shepherd? They are ranked even higher for dysplasia. So…what generalizations can we make about the breeding you are considering? Your breeder (or whoever was looking) might have generations of good hips, but others do not. Here’s the link for all breeds; not sure if you will need to re-select “hips” but it’s an interesting page for all diseases by breed.
The GSD hock angle is extreme, but that doesn’t mean it is connected to the breed’s hip issues or back problems. People who are more familiar with the breed might be able to say whether there is or is not a connection
And “flying trot” is just a trot. But because of the hock angle, the distance traveled through each step is huge. That’s why it’s hard to show them.
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No, you must be thinking of someone else. We’re a vizsla family here, along with whatever mutt I find at the shelter for my personal house dog.
If i were looking for a dog that’s going to stay sound, a show bred GSD would be VERY VERY low on my list (along with many other breeds).
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Sorry. On my phone and couldn’t figure out how to double quote.
It’s biomechanics and force vectors. How could the angle NOT impact the spine, the LS joint, the hips, and the hocks would be a better question.
Breeding for any extreme is going to bring on problems. I’ve been telling the field trial guys this - that 12 o clock tail theyre breeding for is impacting more than just the tail. It’s also rotating the pelvis back and putting the legs further behind the dog than they’re “supposed” to be. Those guys wear the dogs out early from how hard they get worked anyways, so they don’t see any long term implications. They’re also pretty quick to get rid of a dog with problems, so who knows what the consequence will be.
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Although the extreme hock angle and sloping topline of the modern GSD does not appeal to me at all, it is interesting to see all the breeds on the OFA list that do not have extreme hock angles yet are still ranked ahead of the GSD for hip dysplasia - including small breeds such as French Bulldogs (#23, 32.6%), Pugs (#2, 71.5%), Shih Tzus (#35, 22.2%), Brussels Griffon (#5, 52,8%). It is also sobering to see the very small samples for some of those breeds - only 1100 Pugs and 178 Brussels Griffons tested, which to me is an indication that those breeders don’t seem to think it is enough of a problem in their breed to bother getting their stock tested (although the breed’s “popularity” could also be a factor in how often they get tested).
As expected. the most tested breeds are very popular larger breeds (probably because the general prevailing thought has been that larger breeds tend to be more prone to dysplastic hips).
- Labrador Retriever (299,007 specimens, #108 on the list with only 11.6% positive findings)
- Golden Retriever (173,839 specimens, #47 with 19.6% positives)
- German Shepherd Dogs (137,392, #42 with only 20.6 positives)
And only one doodle type is on the list - the Australian Labradoodle (#83, with 13.9% positive findings).
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Poodles themselves rank #104 on the list (with 36,000+ tested, 11.9% dysplastic.)
Yet another reason for choosing a Poodle over a doodle.
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I wonder if people getting golden doodles and labradoodles have ever even met a standard poodle. They are COOL dogs (of the 15 or so ive met). If I didn’t mind the grooming requirements I’d own one.
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Plus a nicely bred, health tested pet quality poodle costs about half of what people are paying for doodles.
The grooming isn’t too bad really. I’ve had cockers (American and currently English) and learned to use clippers. I grew up with a miniature poodle and we had him professionally groomed, but coat maintenance wasn’t particularly difficult. My understanding nowadays is that pulling the hair out of the ears damages the skin and it’s much better for the dog to just keep it trimmed.
They’re so smart. We could teach ours new tricks usually in about 15 minutes.
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Because most aren’t breeds that are listed in OFA.
And even if they were, designer breeders don’t often conduct OFA screenings. But if they are producing F1 crosses, they should test the poodle + other breed.
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Yes, they are hideous too. Just got into this with a Brittany guy on Facebook who loves a pointer with a 12 o’clock tail because it “takes his breath away.” I told him that exactly the same as breeding a setter for a long heavy coat because it’s beautiful in the show ring - the sort of thing those people continuously complain about.
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Yes, indeed. Standard Poodles are one of my favorite breeds - smart, trainable, friendly, and so very stylish!
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What’s a 12 o’clock tail? One that points straight up? If so, it makes no sense to try to make the tail of a pointing breed stand up vertically since horizontal tail carriage is a traditional characteristic of the pointing breeds. Also, the Vizsla Club of America is the official authority on that breed in the U.S., and its standard (the AKC standard) says:
Tail set just below the level of the croup, thicker at the root and docked one-third off. Ideally, it should reach to the back of the stifle joint and when moving it should be carried at or near the horizontal, not vertically or curled over the back, nor between the legs. A docked tail is preferred.
Breed standard means absolutely nothing to the hunting guys. 12 o clock tails are “more stylish” according to them (GSP, English setters, English pointers are their three primary breeds)
None of our vizslas have a 12 o clock tail, and they score just fine.
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Here’s a 12 o clock tail example. 
12 o’clock tails look ridiculous.
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