“Obvious”
Can you articulate?
Here is a video of a flying trot in slow motion.
I don’t see “Big Lick” or obvious strain, so explain where you see it.
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That is an older video, showing more old type. Try this one from 2017 Westminster, where the motion from behind is clearly twisting, and his hocks are nearly contacting the ground. This is the modern GSD that I’m referencing when talking about soundness. (And, best in show, so the extreme will continue…)
That squat isn’t trained, it’s there full time. The hocks on a dog at rest should not be nearly 45deg angle to the ground.
I disagree. If you took her and let her trot off lead like the other dog, I think they would look nearly identical. Handlers cannot keep up with a full out flying trot. And, watching a dog on tv is never accurate because of the camera angle. In the previous video the camera is moving with the dog.
The hock angle is extreme. It’s not the only breed that has extreme angulation. And people focus on it all the time except they usually suggest that it causes or is caused by bad hips.
I understand that the stance is not trained. But again - what is the evidence that it means the dog will become (or is) unsound?
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Here’s a still photo with the camera at the same level as in the video and a still shot from the video. The first dog looks at least as angulated it not more so. And you can see that Rumor cannot fully extend in front as she’s being held back by her handler.
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Well, the high prevalence of hip dysplasia (approx 20% in GSDs at my last look) and predisposition of CES in GSDs (they’re called out specifically in every article you can find about CES, more or less - not to mention the GSD organizations own research into it indicating it as a common problem in the breed) indicates you can’t angulate the back end like that without consequence.
Just like a camped under horse. There’s non-stop strain on joints that aren’t made for non-stop strain.
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Rumor was a pretty dog. But the Crufts dog in 2016 was pretty scary, IMHO.
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Yeah, that reminded me that GSDs are on a watch list for excessive abnormalities by the Kennel Club. I don’t remember what it’s called.
Google says it’s “category 3”. They didn’t do that for nothing…
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The one that was so frightened it’s tail was practically between it’s legs?
Do you really think that’s a fair assessment of its conformation?
So…the dysplasia is caused by the hock angulation? Or this breed just has a higher incidence of dysplasia? Rumor has Good hips and all her tested offspring have good or excellent hips. Some of them have elbow issues, and her elbows were just “fair”…
My issue here is not that these things might exist - it’s that you don’t actually know that there is a connection.
Most of the show breeders in my breed are very careful about hips and elbows. Can’t say quite the same for the field breeders, and can’t say anything about the pet breeders. So. It’s unfair to look at the OFA statistics and make any sweeping generalizations about “conformation breeders”. They might be the ones with the best dogs in the database.
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How does people wanting doodles hurt shelter dogs? That only makes sense if you eradicate all doodles, completely eliminate them from the planet, erase all thoughts of doodles from peoples’ minds, and then ban all dog sales. The only way a person who wants a doodle is going to settle for something else is if there is no other choice…
oh, never mind, I get it. You think that by pushing this trashing of doodles and mutts and equating thier fancy with killing shelter dogs you’ll change people’s minds. I understand that and it has helped quite a bit. The whole adopt dont shop thing has a cult like following so the branding has been effective. That’s a win. The shaming part that always seems to dovetail this marketing is a turn off though, admittedly.
I may be misinterpreting.
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Why can’t it be both?
More examples of that dovetailing in Simkie’s post.
Heck most rescues do pediatric neuter standard operating procedure which sets a dog up for serious health and soundness issues following maturity. This is considered ethical.
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…both of what?
What are you even talking about? You’re responding to Simkie’s post here.
Yes, because it’s considered the lesser of two evils. The vast majority of people out there cannot prevent their pets from reproducing and creating MORE dogs to wind up in rescue.
Since you seem to believe there should be no brakes on breeding anything at all, and totally indiscriminate breeding is perfectly acceptable, where do you think all those puppies are going to GO?
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The whole adopt dont shop thing has a cult like following so the branding has been effective. That’s a win. The shaming part that always seems to dovetail this marketing is a turn off though, admittedly.
Since you missed that part.
You are very triggered so I will just wish you good day.
It’s interesting how you can’t, or won’t, actually answer any questions.
I’m just trying to figure out what you’re trying to say, which I guess you aren’t clear on either. 
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Those dogs are practically plantigrade.
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No you already decided what I am saying, "Since you seem to believe there should be no brakes on breeding anything at all, and totally indiscriminate breeding is perfectly acceptable " say what? “Producing puppies with genetic defects from parents with poor temperament. Which is a really sizable chunk of designer cross breeds. Why are you okay with that?” Ffs who said I was? People who use message boards like this aren’t interested in a conversation, they’re just looking for a fight. You post like one of those people so good day to you.
For the record, I don’t like puggles or doodles, or shoondles or puffypoos for that matter either. At all. Maybe making that clear will cause you to be less antagonistic towards me.
Well, I think a lot end up in shelters and rescues, when they were intentionally bred. Whereas accidentally bred ditch dogs that end up in shelters were not intentionally produced by breeders who didn’t select homes well.
So from that angle - actual “rescue” or “shelter” dogs are being crowded out by breeders cranking out designer puppies without a plan to place them in forever homes.
And - of course - forever homes don’t always end up being forever. But if a breeder makes no effort to place a puppy in a home that is likely to be a good home, it’s no surprise when they end up in rescue/shelters.
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I live in Amishville – and when I volunteered at the local shelter, it was not infrequent that an Amish farmer would dump off 4-5 juvenile doodles that were totally unsocialized and wild as march hares.
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This is what you posted:
Except that there’s no evidence that Puggles are being produced for this reason.
When that was pointed out you said:
So now it’s not that Puggles are being bred because Pugs are too unhealthy?
You think doodles and mutts are a fancy?? Just what do you think is winding up in the shelter in droves?
Damned near all this breeding of cute named mutts is indiscriminate breeding. You’re defending this breeding, first by offering up the Puggle as a healthier Pug, and then backpedaling from there to “people like what they like.”
As I said previously: most of us in this thread are lamenting indiscriminate breeding and would probably be fine if the sire & dam were screened for genetic health conditions and proven in some way. That isn’t happening. You…don’t seem to think it’s important. After all, people “like what they like”!
And I’m not sure at all where you think I’ve ever said anything about “adopt don’t shop.” I buy my dogs. From breeders who screen and put multiple titles on their dogs to prove they should be bred. But yeah, if that’s not your game, finding a nice dog at the shelter makes a hell of a lot more sense than spending $5k on the same mutt from a backyard breeder.
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Yup—been there, seen that. It aggravates me that the humane society is the dumping ground for the factory dog breeders. I guess it’s better than them shooting unwanted pups, but it’s a catch-22 when the shelters end up enabling the factory breeders. Not sure what the answer is. To shut down breeders who dump on the shelters would just drive them underground, to the further detriment of the animal.
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The angst against people who like doodles, et al seems misplaced anger at people who dump dogs, and that anger is rightful. Who isn’t angry about people dumping their dogs? Only psychopaths, I suppose. But is there a direct connection between wanting a doodle poo etc etc etc and pet over population? I’m not convinced.
