Sigh - more designer breeds

[AltersAreUs]

@S1969

It was so hard, and these were experienced dog owners.

Yep, keeping mix-sexed, intact dogs in one household without an “oops” litter is 95% planning and 5% luck.

Even with crates and walls and doors between them, I do not allow my intact animals to be alone in the house together when a bitch is in season. Seen belgians literally chew through doors and wire crates from boredom, I don’t doubt for a minute that they’d manage somehow with enough hormones onboard.

That kind of awareness, dedication, and WORK is not reasonable to expect from 99% of the pet owning public, the folks who think a couple walks a week and knowing how to sit is more than enough exercise & training for Muffin. So yeah, I’m firmly in the “fix everything coming through rescue and pet contracts on most every puppy” camp because Joe Public, even with the best intentions, is not likely to be responsible enough to keep intact dogs.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

As a runner, I can vouch that many dog owners aren’t responsible enough not to let their dogs out and supervise them while the dogs do their business on the unfenced front lawn. (I have often been chased by dogs who were let out in the morning, while the owners fell asleep or started doing other things, leaving said dog to chase me.)

I actually spayed my female dog rather late (well after full adult maturity), despite having no intentions to breed (one-dog household) but my vets were very explicit about the increased risk of pyometra and that spaying was beneficial and needed to be done.

[GoodTimes]

And let’s not forget about other peoples intact dogs.
My mom’s last lab had three planned litters. Whenever she was in heat her outside time was limited to leashes walks on private property. On one occasion a loose intact rottie mix appeared. My mom was literally beating him with a stick as they ran back to the house. He was trying to mount her at a full run. No doubt he would have gotten over a fence to get to her too.
It was long after that my mom retired her from field trials and had her spayed.

[Ghazzu]

@GoodTimes

On one occasion a loose intact rottie mix appeared. My mom was literally beating him with a stick as they ran back to the house.

Many years ago I adopted a Golden from the injured stray ward (when I worked at Angell). She had a fractured pelvis, and could not be spayed until it had healed.
I had to walk her with a longe whip when she was in heat.

[Jenerationx]

That’s always fun. I went to an emergency vet day 2 with one of my dogs… hadn’t even named him at that point when he tried to eat a wasp. He swelled til his face looked like a shar pei and it effected his breathing. No good.

Altering an animal’s hormones is a choice that shouldn’t be taken lightly. It does have consequences. I don’t agree with the culture of cut the balls off and spay everything we have in the US, especially when done too young. I hope the hormone sparing options become more popular.

[S1969]

@GoodTimes

On one occasion a loose intact rottie mix appeared. My mom was literally beating him with a stick as they ran back to the house. He was trying to mount her at a full run. No doubt he would have gotten over a fence to get to her too.

I think people who think “it’s just an inconvenience” have never actually dealt with intact animals and breeding. And I don’t mean just at a dog show, which is work enough, but actually breeding - dogs, livestock, horses, etc. The desire to breed is incredibly important for a species. It’s work to prevent it.

Although I’m sure I’ve told this story here - some breeds don’t have as strong a desire and probably would die out without intervention. I was asked to put my dog back in the car at the repro clinic while they did a semen analysis for my dog because he was carrying on so loudly even after his teaser bitch left the building. But it was apparently distracting the Puli pair they had in for breeding, and although she was in standing heat, the male wasn’t all that interested. The vet said some breeds have a very low libido. Sporting dogs typically do not.

I thought that was interesting.

[DownYonder]

@S1969

The vet said some breeds have a very low libido. Sporting dogs typically do not.

I sometimes watch vet shows on TV and saw one earlier this year where the vets were having to do AI for a German Shorthaired Pointer because the male didn’t seem to be able to figure things out. The owner had brought in both the male and female and even though the female was in standing heat, the male would show mild interest but just seemed genuinely confused as to what he was supposed to do. IIRC, he was young and it was his first breeding attempt. Vets tried to encourage a natural breeding but ended up having to collect the male and inseminate the female.

A friend who had GSPs at one time reported a similar situation. In his case, after multiple attempts at enticing the male to mount the female, he left the room to go get his cellphone so he could video the male’s behavior for the vet (who was several hours away),. Came back to find the male had figured things out, mounted the female and was going at it, although my friend said the dog had a very confused look on his face. That attempt didn’t result in a tie, but the pair mated again later that day, a tie occurred, and the bitch delivered 7 puppies on schedule.

[S1969]

First time males are often a bit confused. It’s not so much a low libido but lack of experience. And some bitches can act very fierce until absolutely ready, so that can be scary for an inexperienced male.

After that…sometimes the challenge is getting them to slow down long enough to get them into position. And it is kind of dangerous for a male if the bitch isn’t ready so most breeders want to be there to assist. I’ve heard stories where the bitch has turned around and bitten the dog in the neck which can be fatal. So many breeders restrain the female until they can turn them after a tie, just in case.

[can_t_re]

@Jenerationx

I’ve always said that unless you’re willing to lose the female, the entire litter, and several thousand dollars, AND she’s going add something phenomenal to the gene pool if you get lucky and she and the offspring survive, you don’t want to breed.

So true.

I am living this currently with my dog. My girl is well bred, multiple titles, and all health clearance. Frozen semen littler. Cha-ching. I was planning on free whelping. Nope. Emergency c-section. Cha-ching. One baby was born very tiny, did all I could to save him. He so wanted to live. He was pts sleep at five weeks. His vet bills were the same cost as the emergency c-section.

[Jenerationx]

That’s unfortunate… It’s more common than a lot of breeders lead people to believe too.

@S1969

I think people who think “it’s just an inconvenience” have never actually dealt with intact animals and breeding. And I don’t mean just at a dog show, which is work enough, but actually breeding - dogs, livestock, horses, etc. The desire to breed is incredibly important for a species. It’s work to prevent it.

I had a female that got fixed when she got pyometra at 4 or 5… I was a teen at that point so don’t recall all of the particulars. She was retired from showing when we got her. Since then I have always had male dogs and none of them were neutered aside from a stray I kept that was neutered when I found him. Aside from having to work harder on focus and make sure they were crated if there was a female in heat anywhere near them, no issues.

I think if the goal of spaying and neutering is to prevent reproduction, then the ovaries and testicles don’t need to be removed for that. If the goal is the health of the dog, then the uterus should be removed, but removing ovaries and testicles leads to unwanted health risks. If it’s behavior, well that can go either way. There’s a study out there showing increased aggression in neutered males, so making a dog more docile isn’t a guarantee. I guess is would make living with a male and female in the same household easier… although I’d still consider not removing ovaries and testicles.

I just think the culture of neuter and spay everything needs to go. You don’t see a lot of discussion or heck, even disclosure of the risks related to growth, temperament, increased risk of some cancers, possible incontinence, etc… it’s not an easy fix all for everything and may in fact be detrimental.

[S1969]

@Jenerationx

Since then I have always had male dogs and none of them were neutered aside from a stray I kept that was neutered when I found him. Aside from having to work harder on focus and make sure they were crated if there was a female in heat anywhere near them, no issues.

Did you breed any of them? Because it all changes once you have bred them and they understand. I used to say the same thing until my dog had been bred. Then we were in a show and were the first BOB dog and came up behind WB without having been told she was in season. It was a wrestling match after that. Not surprisingly, we did not win.

I don’t have an issue with ovary sparing spay, but people need to understand that as well. A NAVHDA Invitational test had to deal with a bitch who had had an OSS but was apparently in season during the invitational brace. The brace dog mounted her on the course. They both lost their minds and as far as I know both failed their tests. An entire year’s worth of training went out the window; they would never have allowed them to be paired if she were in season. Even without a uterus the dog considered her breedable.

[Simkie]

@Jenerationx

If the goal is the health of the dog, then the uterus should be removed, but removing ovaries and testicles leads to unwanted health risks.

But there are also health risks leaving them intact. Risk of mammary cancer is 25% in intact bitches, that’s huge. Even in an ovary sparing spay, stump pyo can be a concern.

It’s not clearly black and white.

And I say that as someone who has no problems managing intact girls. I haven’t spayed a dog in a long time. But when faced with spay or not, laparoscopic or not, ovary sparing or not, timing… There are no clear answers. I struggle greatly with major abdominal surgery without “cause” so I leave them intact. I’ve had one pyo. No mammary cancer (yet.)

[Jenerationx]

@Simkie

But there are also health risks leaving them intact. Risk of mammary cancer is 25% in intact bitches, that’s huge. Even in an ovary sparing spay, stump pyo can be a concern.

It’s not clearly black and white.

And I say that as someone who has no problems managing intact girls. I haven’t spayed a dog in a long time. But when faced with spay or not, laparoscopic or not, ovary sparing or not, timing… There are no clear answers. I struggle greatly with major abdominal surgery without “cause” so I leave them intact. I’ve had one pyo. No mammary cancer (yet.)

Yes, no clear black and white. It may increase other cancers… there seems to be a correlation with increased osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, mast cell cancer, and lymphoma. So even the cancer risk is a trade off.

There’s also the risk of the surgery itself, so you bring up a good point there. Certain breeds don’t do well with anesthesia in general either, so that’s a consideration. My last dog was a male boxer… I wasn’t putting him under for that.

@S1969

Did you breed any of them? Because it all changes once you have bred them and they understand. I used to say the same thing until my dog had been bred.

One was bred once, by the breeder I got him from. 3 were not. I didn’t notice much difference in the male that had been bred. He may have checked the females out a little more, but I cut off any attempts to do more than sniff, and he was pretty obedient to begin with… probably the most well trained I ever owned. The ones that had not ever been bred didn’t seem difficult to manage at all even when there were females around, but I guess I was always used to it. The neutered male may have marked less during walks, but that’s the only difference I saw. That one was way more dog aggressive than any intact male I had.

Interesting with the ovary sparing spay still seeming to be in season. I guess other than her mood there wouldn’t be a sign of being in heat, so that’s something to consider.

[mommy_peanut]

I don’t think it’s so much that responsible breeders don’t talk about the negative, heartbreaking side, as it is that all the doodlers, byb & millers don’t want to understand or don’t care, about the very real possibility of not only losing the pups, but the bitch as well.

The first thing I tell anyone asking me about breeding is to make sure they have a minimum of $5k set aside & that they are prepared to (possibly) lose their dog.

[Jenerationx]

I definitely don’t have the heart for breeding. I’d be devastated if anything went wrong.

[AltersAreUs]

@Jenerationx

I definitely don’t have the heart for breeding. I’d be devastated if anything went wrong.

Same here, I would never forgive myself if I lost one of my girls because I wanted puppies. Less risk with the boys but since my previous male’s full brother was standing with his breeder, I felt no need to offer him. If folks wanted that bloodline, well, there was a “professional” offering it so don’t ask me.

[Sparrowette]

My Dad had an intact female and until she was spayed, he would keep an electric cattle prod with him on walks.

[S1969]

@Jenerationx

I definitely don’t have the heart for breeding. I’d be devastated if anything went wrong.

That and also, unless you have unlimited resources, you may need to part with dogs that don’t produce the way you want.

I remember the first time at my breed nationals, and was sat next to a well-known breed from the opposite coast for a dinner. She was trying to convince me that I could be a breeder, if I wanted to. And she said things like “and then I bred CoCo, and just didn’t like what she produced, so I rehomed her. And I was hoping Fido would turn out for stud, but I didn’t love his head, so I rehomed him.” She explained that if you can’t be brutally selective in your breeding animals, you will never be a good breeder.

I told her I didn’t think I could send my dogs to another home. She said “of course you could.” and then I said “I have 5 horses and none of them are rideable.” She paused for a few minutes and said “…ok well maybe YOU couldn’t be a good breeder.”

Alternatively, I know some so-so breeders who have 10-13 dogs. Because they can’t rehome them. And then you understand why the terrier couple in the movie Best in Show is funny. I know a lot of dog people that are just living on the edge of their credit cards too.

I have 3 dogs and feel like they are neglected enough. I can’t imagine a kennel full. Just no.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@S1969

Alternatively, I know some so-so breeders who have 10-13 dogs.

I know someone who is this way (not a show breeder, btw, although she does sell most of her puppies and the owners seem happy). AND is the same way with horses (breeds two foals a year), only the horses don’t sell nearly as well.

As well as getting too attached to the dogs (or horses) they breed, I think some people get addicted to breeding. If the animals aren’t selling or fetching the price they desire, they think the answer is to breed more, using different stock.

And no one thinks they’re a backyard breeder. The people who have a house full of actual purebreds that weren’t quite good enough turn their noses up at the doodle people. The doodle people turn their noses up at the “oopsie” litters. The oopsie people turn up their nose at puppy mills.

I’m not anti-breeding, btw, although I’d never want to do it myself in a million years. It’s I see so much stuff that just leaves me smh.

[S1969]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

And no one thinks they’re a backyard breeder. The people who have a house full of actual purebreds that weren’t quite good enough turn their noses up at the doodle people. The doodle people turn their noses up at the “oopsie” litters. The oopsie people turn up their nose at puppy mills.

I know breeders with 10-15 dogs that are show champions or, at least more than half of them are. But studs are not hard to find, so most good breeders don’t keep many (if any at all), and most don’t breed all their bitches. So some of these so-so breeders have a couple hopefuls, a couple average brood bitches, a couple average stud dogs, a few veterans. They add up though. And if the studs are not being sought out, and the puppies from the bitches are going to pet homes (not that there is anything wrong with pets), it’s a lot of money. They must be losing money in a compounded fashion - anything they make from selling puppies is still less than what they spend on upkeep and titling…and the more dogs they have, the more that gap grows.

I can’t afford it. Or, don’t have any desire to live paycheck to paycheck for dogs.