Sire line and having a colt gelded

[Elles]

He was bred for eventing by the breeder of Stormhill Kossack and Stormhill Michael – placed twice at Badminton. She also bred the racehorse Stormhill Stag who has eight wins on his CV.
She bred the stallion Stormhill Miller, sire of Stormhill Michael. Ande coloured stallion Stormhill Mink.

She used mares like Stormhill Arrow who is the dam of the four-star horse Stormhill Kossack, the intermediate Stormhill Firestar, the Grade B showjumper Stormhill Storytime, etc.
An other broodmare was Stormhill Matilda who bred very useful stock competing at the lower levels. There is also Stormhill Expedition.
And a horse that at the moment is being trained for eventing is Stormhill Raindance.

This is the stablename she gave my guy: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10890466.

[Elles]

He popped a hindleg splint on the pasture last summer and that means that the studbooks would not consider him. Although he is sound.
I do not know how much chance he would have at breeding without the support of a studbook.
Some rather bad flashlight pictures of him from December 2014:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-4KM6SKYO.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-4S3SDQOU.jpg

I must say that there are more Tourbillon sire line males around than I thought there would be! So no worries there I think.

[Elles]

Reading through this topic I am inclined to have him gelded.

[SusanneSP]

I think that’s probably wise and you could have a lovely horse to enjoy. A stallion needs to have it all - be an individual with proven athletic ability and conformation, and an interesting pedigree with proven bloodlines (both sire and dam lines). In addition, you need to have the budget, skills, and marketing ability to get him to the top.

[Elles]

I could only be a launching pad for someone with deeper pockets who just maybe would buy him from me if he looks talented/gifted.

[weixiao]

I think you should choose based on what YOU want to do and how YOU want to enjoy him.

The line is rarer, there is no doubt about that, and I think that it is a line that is important and should be preserved. If I had unlimited (truly, infinitely unlimited, because that’s probably what it would take) I would love to try and champion genetic diversity in the thoroughbred. However, I don’t think that the line is quite at the point of extinction just yet. I know the stallions I posted are older, but some of them are still standing or have offspring that stand. There are also a few successfully racing still as turf horses, who tend to have a longer career, so are not yet at stud but may be in the future. There were a few colts sold just this month at Tattersall’s by Vinnie Roe. Additionally, there are some stallions here in the US, in Australia, and I believe possibly some who have been exported to Japan and South Africa with this direct sire line.

As a non-race horse, I don’t believe he would be of interest to race breeders, who are the majority of TB breeders.

I don’t believe there are many sport breeders that are committed to 100% TB horses (although I think it would be nice to see more!), so if they were really interested in pursuing the BT line, they have a few TB options but they also have a significant number of WB options. Zeus, a Selle Francais stallion, was a highly sought after line in Europe for sport horses, and he carries the BT direct sire line. He had numerous offspring and several descendants are actively standing stallions (and some of his older descendants are still available frozen. http://www.highoffleystud.co.uk/horseinfo.asp?id=3904

Other successful WB sire lines include:

• Ramiro Z, the great Holsteiner stallion, is another. He was obviously an exceptional stallion with many descendants, particularly show jumpers.
• Rubinstein I
• Ganesco (by Unesco) who produced Bellini 817 etc several approved sons through this line for dressage and jumping
• Bolero, by Black Sky xx was a noted sire for the Hanoverian studbook who also has numerous male descendants, including the popular Belissimo M, who has more than 42 licensed sons himself

If I recall correctly from when we had a few Cleveland Bays, a popular existing sire line traces back to a TB named Skyrocket, who’s grandsire was Herod.

And this is just what I’m readily aware of, I’m positive there is more than that as well.

So, the line is out there. I would make the choice based on what you want to do with him, how you’ll enjoy him, and what’s best for you and I wouldn’t worry about the rest. He is very cute! Good luck with him!

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8008079]
He popped a hindleg splint on the pasture last summer and that means that the studbooks would not consider him. Although he is sound.
I do not know how much chance he would have at breeding without the support of a studbook.
Some rather bad flashlight pictures of him from December 2014:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-4KM6SKYO.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-4S3SDQOU.jpg

I must say that there are more Tourbillon sire line males around than I thought there would be! So no worries there I think.[/QUOTE]

I think if the lady that was responsible for those horses, still has his bloodlines, and is a successful breeder, then they will be carried on as best as possible.
You can collect and freeze if your serious about being a champion for his genetics, then the horse has a good life and he might do well enough that some really decent mare owners would be interested.
I can’t see you competing for stud fees and coming out ahead.
Good luck with your boy and hope he does very well.

[Elles]

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Stormhill-Stud-close-battle-local-planners-comes/story-17959823-detail/story.html

[jadebe]

[QUOTE=weixiao;8008322]
…The line is rarer, there is no doubt about that, and I think that it is a line that is important and should be preserved. If I had unlimited (truly, infinitely unlimited, because that’s probably what it would take) I would love to try and champion genetic diversity in the thoroughbred. However, I don’t think that the line is quite at the point of extinction just yet…[/QUOTE]
There is good reason to try and prevent any further loss of genetic diversity in the TB and other breeds/types that are effectively closed to new ‘blood’. However, the only genetic factor common to all members of a “sire line” is the nonrecombinant, male-specific, portion of the y chromosome (MSY). The modest amount of genetic diversity that once existed there was lost at domestication. Only one ‘sire line’ aka: male lineage made it through that process which, in evolutionary terms, is a very recent event. There simply hasn’t been time for significant diversity to re-establish itself in the MSY to the point where extinction of a horse in pedigree topline would represent a loss of functional genetic diversity (ref. Wallner et al. 2013).

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=jadebe;8008861]
There is good reason to try and prevent any further loss of genetic diversity in the TB and other breeds/types that are effectively closed to new ‘blood’. However, the only genetic factor common to all members of a “sire line” is the nonrecombinant, male-specific, portion of the y chromosome (MSY). The modest amount of genetic diversity that once existed there was lost at domestication. Only one ‘sire line’ aka: male lineage made it through that process which, in evolutionary terms, is a very recent event. There simply hasn’t been time for significant diversity to re-establish itself in the MSY to the point where extinction of a horse in pedigree topline would represent a loss of functional genetic diversity (ref. Wallner et al. 2013).[/QUOTE]

This is not entirely true. It has been discovered very recently that there are 3 variants in the Y chromosome in Western Europe. One was from a mutation in a son or grandson of the TB stallion Eclipse in the latter 1700s. It obviously brought some “value” as far as horse use is concerned because over 90% of TB sire lines derive from the son or grandson of Eclipse. That Y has overwhelmed even the non-mutated sons of Eclipse. The vast majority of WB sire lines trace back to the “new” Y.

We might be talking from the same article, since the one that I have is a 2013 PLos article by Wallner, et al.

Very recent research has indicated that the Y chromosome may be far more important in male horse development than was previously thought. And another study has found more of the father’s genes in the equine placenta than the mother’s genes.

[Elles]

Gribaldi -> Eclipse
De Niro -> Eclipse
Florestan I -> Matchem
Donnerhall -> Eclipse
Jazz -> Matchem
Michellino -> Eclipse
Sandro Hit -> Eclipse
Ferro -> Matchem
Don Schufro -> Eclipse
Come Back II -> Eclipse

Kannan -> Matchem
Cornet Obolensky -> Eclipse
Diamant de Semilly -> Eclipse
Baloubet du Rouet -> Eclipse
For Pleasure -> Matchem
Heartbreaker -> Darley Arabian
Cardento -> Eclipse
Contendro I -> Eclipse
Indoctro -> Eclipse
Quidam de Revel -> Eclipse

Master Imp -> Herod
Heraldik -> Eclipse
Ghareeb -> Eclipse
Cruising -> Unknown
Jumbo -> Unknown
Cult Hero -> Eclipse
Ricardo Z -> Herod
Ituango -> Eclipse
Ramiro B -> Eclipse

[stoicfish]

And another study has found more of the father’s genes in the equine placenta than the mother’s genes.

I would like to read this. It doesn’t make sense at first thought.

I didn’t know about most horses going back to Eclipse, wow. All mine do except for one that goes to Matchem.

People think Wb’s are some random group and not a breed but the more you look into it, you find most all of them are decedents of a handful of horses and share a unique genetic pool.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8009219]
I would like to read this. It doesn’t make sense at first thought.[/QUOTE]

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/32581/study-sires-genes-form-the-equine-placenta

It’s not just Eclipse. It’s his grandson Whalebone for the mutated non-recombinant Y.

[jadebe]

@vineyridge;8009073

This is not entirely true. It has been discovered very recently that there are 3 variants in the Y chromosome in Western Europe. One was from a mutation in a son or grandson of the TB stallion Eclipse in the latter 1700s. It obviously brought some “value” as far as horse use is concerned because over 90% of TB sire lines derive from the son or grandson of Eclipse. That Y has overwhelmed even the non-mutated sons of Eclipse. The vast majority of WB sire lines trace back to the “new” Y.

Only three variants are widely distributed but Wallner identified six total - the male lineage that survived domestication plus four primary variants (three of which are confined to single populations other than TB or SH breeds) and one secondary variant thereof.

The secondary variant is found only in tail male descendants of Whalebone 1807. All other contemporary TB’s, including tm descendants of Eclipse via King Fergus, Herod, & Matchem, have the single widespread primary variant from which arose the secondary variant when a single nucleotide was ‘dropped’ during gamete formation.

The secondary variant was available to the TB gene pool no later than when Whalebone went to stud ~1815 but it was many more equine generations before his tm descendants established their current dominance, not to mention an obvious major bottlenecking in that descendancy at Phalaris 1913. This suggests no positive selection pressure on the secondary variant at the time it became available, nor do Wallner et al. even hint at the possibility of functional variance in any of their six identified variants.

Very recent research has indicated that the Y chromosome may be far more important in male horse development than was previously thought. And another study has found more of the father’s genes in the equine placenta than the mother’s genes.

None of the paternal genes given preference during development of the placenta are on the Y chrom., so they can and do differ among members of same ‘sire line’. Please let me know more about the recent Y research. TIA.

[jadebe]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8009247]
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/32581/study-sires-genes-form-the-equine-placenta

It’s not just Eclipse. It’s his grandson Whalebone for the mutated non-recombinant Y.[/QUOTE]
The mutation could have occurred at Whalebone, or his sire Waxy, or his grandsire Pot8os. The latter two are extinct in sire line or very nearly so in TB except via Whalebone so it would be difficult to determine in which it occurred.

[jadebe]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8009219]
I would like to read this. It doesn’t make sense at first thought.[/QUOTE]

Study: Sires’ Genes Form the Equine Placenta

Paternally expressed genes predominate in the placenta

[vineyridge]

It wasn’t just Phalaris; Stockwell/Bend Or was exploding during the middle 1800s. Matchem survives today through a single sire–Melbourne. Herod survived to the 20th century through two sire lines only–Atlantic/Le Sancy and Dollar. Saint Simon was the Phalaris of his time, deriving from King Fergus line of Eclipse, and he is virtually extinct today. Germany preserves a unique Whalebone lineage from Camel through Bay Ronald, with a tiny and related branch through Himyar in the US. The Bayardo/Gainsborough branch is dead AFAIK except Down Under where it is rapidly dying. There may be vestiges of these descents in South America, Japan, and other odd places that have bred TBs long enough to have the lineages already in place. Eastern Europe and Russia come to mind as places to look. But the Phalaris wave is washing over them as well. And honestly, there aren’t that many different Phalaris sire lines active today.

It was my impression that evolution works because some change gave a benefit that helped the change carrier spread its genes more widely than others who didn’t have that change. It may take centuries or millennia but where breeding is directed by humans, it can happen much almost instantly. Whatever the benefit was that Whalebone’s male descendants provide, it’s certainly been selected for by mankind ever since it appeared. I seriously doubt that is coincidental.

[vineyridge]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v508/n7497/full/508463a.html

I believe, but am not sure, that the horse was one of the mammals studied.

[jadebe]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8009468]
… Whatever the benefit was that Whalebone’s male descendants provide, it’s certainly been selected for by mankind ever since it appeared. I seriously doubt that is coincidental.[/QUOTE]
If the y chromosome variant that originated at Whalebone or Waxy or Pot8os conferred an advantage that attracted strong positive selection pressure it would probably have attenuated Sultan’s dominance in the stud during the 1830s and it would certainly have precluded the extensive late 19th/early 20th cent. floruit of King Fergus’ branch of Eclipse’s male line via Vedette, Galopin and, most proliferatively, St. Simon.

Furthermore, MSY expression is testis-specific. It’s ‘silent’ everywhere else. The only advantage/disadvantage variation in MSY might confer is a reproductive one. In regard to that, I haven’t made a study of it but would say I think that in the TB there’s more variation in repro success within the two male populations defined by MSY variants than between them.

Correction to an earlier reply to you - Wallner et al. proposed that the single nucleotide deletion distinguishing the Whalebone MSY is due to a putative gene conversion, not a simple replication error in gametogenesis.

[Elles]

And what does this all say about my colt? With regard to: to geld or not to geld?

Pictures of his head:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-QK6JUPSU.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-A6NBROPM.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-ZYOBB6OM.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-8MBYXG3V.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-EEVC4LC4.jpg

In 2011 we had in Holland the following warmblood approved Thoroughbred stallions:
Hopalong Cassidy, Albaran, Coconut Grove (of course not living in Holland), Roven, Wilawander and deceased Julio Mariner and Sit this one Out and exported Watermill Swatch.
According to me Hopalong Cassidy is still alive, Albaran is at the watermolen stud, Coconut Grove died, Roven is at team Nijhof and Wilawander died. I do not know if there is still frozen available from the two that had already died in 2011. Watermill Swatch is still living in Ireland.
Not warmblood approved TB stallions are these:
http://www.stallionlocator.com/nl/list/country/nl/breed/31