[QUOTE=Elles;8008622]
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Stormhill-Stud-close-battle-local-planners-comes/story-17959823-detail/story.html[/QUOTE]
Sad. 
I also think it is very sad, I would certainly like to make her happy and proud of having bred my colt one way or the other.
Did you read the two 2014 studies from Nature? There is an NYTimes article that summarizes the findings.
www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/science/researchers-see-new-importance-for-y-chromosome.html
One of these genes is SRY, and others are involved in sperm production. A third category of genes is unusual in being switched on not just in the testis but in tissues all over the body. These active genes, of which there are 12 in humans, all have high-level roles in controlling the state of the genome and the activation of other genes.
The 12 regulatory genes have counterpart genes on the X with which they used to recombine millions of years ago. They escaped the usual decay caused by lack of recombination, presumably being kept functional by purifying selection, a geneticistsā term meaning that any mutations were lethal to the owner. They have, however, become somewhat different from their 12 counterpart genes on the X.
This means that female, or XX, cells have a slightly different set of these powerful genes from male or XY cells, since the X and Y genes are producing slightly different proteins. In females, usually one X chromosome is inactivated in each cell, but the 12 genes are so important that they escape inactivation, and XX cells, like XY cells, receive a double dose of the geneās products.
āThroughout human bodies, the cells of males and females are biochemically different,ā Dr. Page said. The genome may be controlled slightly differently because of this variation in the 12 regulatory genes, which he thinks could contribute to the differing incidence of many diseases in men and women.
Differences between male and female tissues are often attributed to the powerful influence of sex hormones. But now that the 12 regulatory genes are known to be active throughout the body, there is clearly an intrinsic difference in male and female cells even before the sex hormones are brought into play.
Acorado I -> Eclipse
Coriano -> Eclipse
Popeye K -> Matchem
Cassini I -> Eclipse
All the Gold -> Eclipse
Escudo I -> Eclipse
Espri -> Eclipse
Voltaire -> Matchem
Alla Czar -> Herod
Accord II -> Eclipse
Riverman -> Herod
Indoctro -> Eclipse
Ferragamo -> Matchem
Dimitil de Terlong -> Eclipse
Levisto -> Eclipse
Caretino -> Eclipse
Rio Grande -> Herod
VDL Orame -> Eclipse
Couleur Rubin -> Eclipse
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/89047/kentucky-sire-lines-for-2015
http://www.horseracingnation.com/news/The_Death_of_the_Thoroughbred_Triumvirate_123
[QUOTE=Elles;8009993]
Acorado I -> Eclipse
Coriano -> Eclipse
Popeye K -> Matchem
Cassini I -> Eclipse
All the Gold -> Eclipse
Escudo I -> Eclipse
Espri -> Eclipse
Voltaire -> Matchem
Alla Czar -> Herod
Accord II -> Eclipse
Riverman -> Herod
Indoctro -> Eclipse
Ferragamo -> Matchem
Dimitil de Terlong -> Eclipse
Levisto -> Eclipse
Caretino -> Eclipse
Rio Grande -> Herod
VDL Orame -> Eclipse
Couleur Rubin -> Eclipse
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/89047/kentucky-sire-lines-for-2015
http://www.horseracingnation.com/news/The_Death_of_the_Thoroughbred_Triumvirate_123[/QUOTE]
From the first article: āThe Herod/Byerley Turk male line has been extinct in Kentucky for decades.ā
And nearly extinct elsewhere in NA.
I donāt understand why mares with BT sirelines seem to be valued over here (at least from recent auction data), but stallions are not.
Coincidence?
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpsiresBT.html
(24)AHONOORA (1975)
(25)DONāT FORGET ME (1984)
(26)REMEMBER ROSE (2003) [GSP 200
(25)INDIAN RIDGE (1985)
(26)DEFINITE ARTICLE (1992)
(27)BLACK JACK BLUES (2003) [AGN
(24)ZACCIO (1976) [AGN 1981]
Yes I have and Iāll grant you that MSY as itās traditionally defined (everything on the Y except the pseudo-autosomal region) is not 100% testis-specific.
The devil in the details is that the region, contig YE3, containing the polymorphisms that define 3 of the 6 domestic horse y variants (including Whaleboneās), is one of those sequences native to the X chromosome that at some point has been transferred to the y by gene conversion (translocation or ectopic recombination). Such sequences tend to be more mutable āhotspotsā where the same or similar event is more likely to happen in future (see Wallner, p.7). They are neither as stable or specific as native MSY, nor as highly mutable as obligately recombinant DNA.
Exactly how long ago that gene conversion occurred is difficult to estimate but it was probably earlier rather than later since its sequence differs from the corresponding region on the modern equine reference x sequence at 25 SNPs and 4 indels. One of the latter is the deletion that is the only difference between the HT3 of Whaleboneās clan and the HT2 of the rest of the contemporary male TB population. Wallner proposes that HT3 is the result of another, very recent, gene conversion, involving a shorter segment of the x sequence analogous to contig YE3 than did the earlier one.
This didnāt introduce anything new, per se., into the TB. The single nucleotide deletion came from the x chromosome of a Thoroughbred dam, specifically Spilletta, or Sportsmistress, or Maria 1777 by Herod. It was already present in the breed. The gene conversion did raise the novel possibility that this particular deletion could be present in the analogous sequence on the y, as well as on the x. Again, thereās no evidence that this conferred a degree of advantage that invited immediate intense positive selection pressure on Whalebone and his tail male descendants. You can speculate that itās a contributing factor to the success of that male lineage but if you want to turn it into a credible hypothetical try explaining the structure, function, and expression of that particular region of the x, and how doubling up on the single nucleotide deletion might confer some advantage.
Only that āsire lineā as defined by a horse that lived 300 years ago is of purely sentimental relevance to the question of gelding him.
Canāt be Spilletta because the mutation didnāt occur at the level of her son Eclipse. Had to be downstream, doesnāt it? Sportsmistress, Maria or Penelope?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8010593]
Canāt be Spilletta because the mutation didnāt occur at the level of her son Eclipse. Had to be downstream, doesnāt it? Sportsmistress, Maria or Penelope?[/QUOTE]
The gene conversion would have occurred during the meiotic division that produced the y-carrying gamete that contributed half the genome of Pot8os, or Waxy, or Whalebone. That process took place in the body of their sires where the available xās were those of Spilletta, Sportsmistress, and Maria. Eclipse did not pass on the mutation to all of his sons but he quite possibly ācreatedā it.
And having Indian Ridge at all in his pedigree, does that do anything in his favour?
Looking at this horse: http://www.hippomundo.com/competitions/index/77573
http://www.hippomundo.com/horses/info/index/77573/3
In Germany there was this horse out of an Ahonoora dam:
http://www.trakehner-parforce.de/Sportpferde/Edmont/Edmont-01.html
[QUOTE=Elles;8011076]
And having Indian Ridge at all in his pedigree, does that do anything in his favour?
Looking at this horse: http://www.hippomundo.com/competitions/index/77573
http://www.hippomundo.com/horses/info/index/77573/3[/QUOTE]
What to me would be as important as pedigree is that he was bred by a respected and successful event horse breeder. If heās got successful close relatives that certainly would be a factor in your decision.
Iād think it would important to get him out and evaluated by other event horse experts and horse breeders; to get him to Future Event Horse competitions, even as young as he is. You, yourself, donāt have the expertise to judge what you have in terms of a potential event stallion. Gelding is only reversible if you can afford to clone him later on. And The Netherlands does not have an event horse breeding tradition, so if they are looking to breed top modern event horses, they NEED blood.
Wait until heās gotten to your trainer to make a decision and use the trainerās thoughts and experience to help with deciding.
Most of his relatives are still rather young. I know that the people who bought his dam wanted to continue using her for breeding. Hopefully most siblings, half brothers/sisters have ended up in homes where people will use them for competition.
His older half sister at least ended up in a very good home where people are seriously trying to make her as competitive as possible in eventing. But they do it while being very good and honest towards the horse.
Recently in Holland a start was made with a annual eventing horse sale during Boekelo.
http://www.military-boekelo.nl/Programma/KWPNEventinghorseSale/Veilingpaarden.aspx
http://www.kwpn.nl/2013/10/resultaten-eerste-editie-kwpn-eventinghorse-sale/
http://www.hippomundo.nl/competitions/index/53142
http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/info/index/53142/3
Deerhound, full brother to Foxhound:
http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/info/index/100094/3
http://www.hippomundo.nl/competitions/index/100094
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/stallionbook/stallion.sd?popup=1&horse_id=3618
http://www.irishracing.com/horse?name=Indian-Jockey&prt=127067
https://www.timeform.com/racing/Ledger/HorseLedger?HorseId=000000330595
http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=812328&topHorseTabs=photo_tab_content#topHorseTabs=photo_tab_content&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/stallionbook/stallion.sd?horse_id=86585&popup=1
For photos of ancestors of my colt:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=cadbury8&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0
For what it is worth, the sire of my colt tracing in tail female line to:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=529130&blood=10"a=
This horse he has 100 times in his pedigree:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=500875&blood=10"a=
This horse he has 162 times in his pedigree:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=bay+ronald&x=0&y=0
Rondeau = Teddy 42 times
His dam has Fair Play 13 times.
The Tetrarch I do not know, he does have His Highness, My Babu three times, Almahmoud twice, Mr. Trouble, Bold Ruler, Grey Sovereign, Nashua (Roberto), Nasrullah 6 times, Royal Charger five times and Abernant.
Son in Law: he has Aloe twice, I think he has Apron, he has Foxlaw, he has Lady Juror 17 times, he has Rustom Pasha and Winalot (Serena), the last I think twice.
And St. Simon he has almost a 1,000 times.
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/thoroughbreds-point-to-success-26764448.html
Taking a look at specific bloodlines, William lists 10 TB ancestors that any breeder should be delighted to find in their horseās pedigree.
They are Galopin, St Simon, Bay Ronald, Rondeau, Chaucer, Dark Ronald, Bayardo, Fair Play, The Tetrarch and Son in Law.
These āoldies but goodiesā are the common ancestors of the five TB gods of the warmblood world ā Furioso, Rantzau, Ladykiller, Cottage Son and Lucky Boy ā and the other 165 TB eventing sires he examined.
http://www.horses.nl/opinie/paard-luipaard/
Translation of some pieces of text:
With prices of well over 20,000 euros for only four or five year old horses KWPN breeders know what they have to do: eventing horse breeding! They were readily sold last weekend in Boekelo, future eventing horses of the KWPN Military Boekelo Auction. And they were actually sold.
Horses like Peter Parker (sire: Iām Supposin xx) Rocana (sire: Ituango xx) and Hale Bob (v. Helikon xx) ruled in Boekelo. Tim Phillips observed once again the difference between Oncarlos and European Championship winner Keyflow. Thatās the difference between a horse and a leopard. Where speed and mental courage both play a role.
The KWPN takes eventing very seriously. But KWPN breeders should consider very seriously whether they want to produce eventers. There are few good thoroughbred stallions and I know at the moment not one thoroughbred stallion that will bring the talent for dressage or jumping not dramatically down.
At the time the article was written the KWPN was 11th in the wbfsh rankings. However a year later the studbook was 4th.
http://www.kwpn.org/2014/10/wbfsh-kwpn-breeders-1st-dressage-jumping-4th-eventing/
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/September_Eventing_Studbook_Final.pdf
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/bloodstock/from-the-racetrack-to-rolex-ottbs-at-eventings-highest-level/
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/12/friedrich-butt-breeding-eventers/
Response to the article: Okay, so breeding to a TB will affect dressage gaits and show jumping power. So what? Breeding for an event horse who only needs 4th level dressage and 3ā9 stadium jumping skill at the very highest level of the sport involves PRIMARILY a horse with XC talent. Itās only one foal out of a mareās life. She can always go back to dressage stallions and sj stallions if the breeder wants a 1.60 meter or FEI dressage horse. If youāre breeding for eventing, you look first to XC and then to the other disciplinesāor at least thatās how itās traditionally been done. If youāre not breeding for eventing, expecting a modern TB stallion to pass on modern dressage gaits and modern sj power to their F1s is finding the needle in the haystack. Very, very few modern (Heraldik is the only one that comes to mind) TBs have done that.
I also would question his ādrasticallyā; might agree with ādefinitelyā. Iām trying to be realistic about the place of the TB in modern WB breeding. They are mostly used to produce F1s who will be bred again to WBs to bring sj power and dressage gaits.
If youāre not breeding for eventing, expecting a modern TB stallion to pass on modern dressage gaits and modern sj power to their F1s is finding the needle in the haystack. Very, very few modern (Heraldik is the only one that comes to mind) TBs have done that.
This is it. There have been pages of discussion but it come down to this.
It isnāt that Tbās are not wonderfully athletic or a valuable edition. But there are very few that can do that in one generation and only a few more that āfit inā with the existing breeding programs. I like Tb in my riding horses but I am not aiming for the top.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8016268]
Response to the article: Okay, so breeding to a TB will affect dressage gaits and show jumping power. So what? Breeding for an event horse who only needs 4th level dressage and 3ā9 stadium jumping skill at the very highest level of the sport involves PRIMARILY a horse with XC talent. Itās only one foal out of a mareās life. She can always go back to dressage stallions and sj stallions if the breeder wants a 1.60 meter or FEI dressage horse. If youāre breeding for eventing, you look first to XC and then to the other disciplinesāor at least thatās how itās traditionally been done. If youāre not breeding for eventing, expecting a modern TB stallion to pass on modern dressage gaits and modern sj power to their F1s is finding the needle in the haystack. Very, very few modern (Heraldik is the only one that comes to mind) TBs have done that.
I also would question his ādrasticallyā; might agree with ādefinitelyā. Iām trying to be realistic about the place of the TB in modern WB breeding. They are mostly used to produce F1s who will be bred again to WBs to bring sj power and dressage gaits.[/QUOTE]
Not disagreeing with you (in general), viney, but 4* stadium is 1.30 m and cross country is up to 1.20 m for fixed obstacles, with brush above the fixed part of the obstacle reaching a maximum height of 1.40 m (4ā7). A little higher than 3ā9. 
But yes, the same principle applies - they certainly do not have to be 1.60 m horses.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;8016436]
Not disagreeing with you (in general), viney, but 4* stadium is 1.30 m and cross country is up to 1.20 m for fixed obstacles, with brush above the fixed part of the obstacle reaching a maximum height of 1.40 m (4ā7). A little higher than 3ā9. But yes, the same principle applies - they certainly do not have to be 1.60 m horses.[/QUOTE]
Cross Country jumping has traditionally been very different from sj.
Things may be changing, but there is no question in my mind that scope (the ability to jump high and wide) has never been an issue with TBs as is well proved by chasing. Itās the power that seems to be the problem for TBs today in arena jumping with modern courses.
I just looked and 1.30 meters is the equivalent of 4ā3".
The writer is Dutch and a lot of Dutch people do not know and understand a lot about TBās AND eventing.
http://e-venting.co.uk/2014/09/world-equestrian-games-the-breeding/
Percentage of St. Simon blood in the horses in his 5th generation of my colt:
Lorenzaccio 10%
Helen Nichols 8.8%
Swing Easy 8.2%
Golden City 9.6%
Lyphard 11.3%
Lupe II 10.4%
Habitat 7.6%
Milly Moss 12%
Lorenzaccio 7%
Helen Nichols 8.8%
Top Ville 11.3%
Enperia 8.3%
Habitat 7.6%
Tingitana 10.3%
So Blessed 12.5%
Collyria 15.9%
Nearctic 17.2%
Natalma 9.2%
Admiralās Voyage 8.3%
Petitioner 9.4%
Tom Fool 10.9%
Busanda 4.3%
Sir Gaylord 9.7%
Missy Baba 8.4%
Turn To 13.1%
Nothirdchance 7%
Nashua 12.5%
Rarelea 5.5%
Sword Dancer 9.6%
Kerala 8%
Nearctic 17.2%
Bally Free 12.7%
Roberto 9.5%
Arabia 11.9%
Son Ange 7%
Flying Needles 7.6%
Forli 11.7%
Stay at Home 8.5%
Lord Gayle 11.1%
Turkish Suspicion 11.4%
Somewhere I went wrong because these are 40 ancestors and not 32ā¦
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/author/admin/page/3/
The English have always dabbled with the European horse, but in the last couple of years, the turnaround has been complete, with all the front line British riders mounted on European bred horses. According to Tim Stockdale, it was a natural progression:
āIn fairness, it has been an evolution in the sport, with the sport moving on, the type of horse you need has certainly changed. The material at one point was quite natural looking, but then it went to more colours, but still quite big and imposing, and therefore boldness was the key. As the sport evolved, more technical aspects came into the course, and the jumps started to become more delicate and thatās when you need a different horse. As opposed to the stronger, bigger, bolder horse, you need a more agile, more athletic, a more sharp and sensitive type of horse. Because in Germany, Holland, Belgium and France, their horse sport is predominantly showjumping, their breeders concentrate on showjumping horses ā whereas in England and Ireland we have a hunting type of mentality. The Europeans were the first to pick up on the different type of horse needed for the evolving showjumping competition, thatās why the Warmbloods are now more specific to dressage and showjumping, and the older fashioned, bolder type of horse that came from England and Ireland, is more and more out of fashion.ā
Was there much resistance to the European horse in the UK?
āI think there was in the older generation but in fairness, the 70s saw a German horse that was a big powerful brute but not particularly sharp on the old brainsā¦ What the European breeders did was bring in the sensitivity via the English Thoroughbred, this is why when you know a little about breeding, you find that the modern sporthorse has a very strong influence via the British Thoroughbred. We had that, and we exported it and allowed them to use it in their breeding program.ā
Perhaps the major factor has been the change of courses. Leopoldo Palacios (who spends 46 weekends a year building showjumping tracks all around the world) points out: āYears ago, riders used only Thoroughbreds and the Thoroughbreds, I believe, are wonderful horses ā however in the sport today, the courses are made for Warmbloods. The difference is if you look at the old courses they have 700 metres, 14 fences, now it is 480 metres and 14 fences. For the Thoroughbred, it is difficult jumping the fences so near one to the other. The mind of the Thoroughbred is more hot.ā
If you look at the picture here of Hello Sanctos:
http://www.noellefloyd.com/scott-brash-holds-onto-world-1-position-for-third-month-in-a-row/
and compare his conformation with those of his ancestors, it can easily be seen he much more resembles his light type ancestors than he does his heavy type ancestors:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=hello+sanctos&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0
