I also recently read something by a sj course designer who said until recently courses were all designed on a 12’ stride. Now the striding may range from 8’ to 15’ in the same course and horse have to be able to shorten and lengthen and still jump the height.
At least Palacios admits that “today the courses are DESIGNED for warmbloods.”
http://www.horsesinternational.com/articles/warmblood-thoroughbred-perfect-marriage/
Picture of Pericles xx:
http://www.mazurek-konie.pl/en/przodkowie-believe-in-me/#
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/01/andrew-hoy-the-changing-world-of-eventing/
By the way, my colt also has the sire of The Tetrarch, Roi Herode, 13 times. Namely through: Tom Fool (2x), Hail to Reason, Native Dancer (3x), Noble Star (he has Roi Herode two times) and Cinq a Sept (5x). On top of the about 22 times he has The Tetrarch himself in his bloodline (see page 3, post 53).
Thurio he has 77 times: http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34605
Linebreeding in Ahonoora: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=729549&blood=10"a=
https://data.fei.org/Ranking/Search.aspx?rankingCode=C_WR_H
FISCHERROCANA FST 63.67% xx/ox
By Ituango xx.
This horse has been influenced by Literat (by Birkhahn), who has been influenced by Dark Ronald and Ard Patrick.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/8095
http://www.pedigreequery.com/herold
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=300211
This means linebreeding to Galopin.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=300764&blood=10"a=
Nuage is the sire of Aversion, dam of Alchimist.
Acatenango is out of Aggravate and she is out of this horse
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=212771&blood=10"a=
The mare named She has quite some Stockwell and Pocahontas influence.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=673462&blood=10"a=
In Masetto:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=459322&blood=10"a=
We find among others this horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=73984&blood=10"a=
Who also has some St. Simon / Galopin influence. His sire Fervor can be found three times in the pedigree of Masetto.
So this means that it is definitely not only Dark Ronald having a big influence on the German TB and sport horse but also other TB’s have been used for linebreeding.
The best full TB on that WBFSH ranking list is SHANGHAI JOE:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=11092965&blood=10"a=
A big influence in the pedigree is Star Kingdom:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10873255&blood=10"a=
Star Kingdom:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=234010&blood=10"a=
His sire Stardust:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=650997&blood=10"a=
And this is Sunlight xx, sire of So is Et, the second horse on the list:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=747322&blood=10"a=
This is the sire of the third horse on the list:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=397165
This is his dam:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=326718&blood=10"a=
I am wondering what I should make of the following:
http://www.cordezhorses.co.za/rivendell-wangu.html
On an international level, Sadler’s Wells is highly desirable for show jumping horses and increasingly so, which has resulted in much international interest in Wangu’s breeding and pedigree.
I think you can safely ignore the statement.
I think a lot of us have agreed that your colt has a nice enough pedigree. However, that is only one teeny, tiny piece of the puzzle. Nice breeding is really just paper at the end of the day. If you really want your colt to be a stallion prospect, he needs a performance record and he needs to get approved by a studbook. I wouldn’t worry about his breeding any more for the time being. Decide if you want to start him this year and get him to someone who can start him well. Start saving, because he’s going to need to go into training and start competing within the next couple of years and that won’t be cheap. He will have zero value as a stallion hanging out in a field, or with limited performance and visibility. I personally think you are going to enjoy him a lot more if you don’t worry about making him a stallion prospect, geld him, and just get him in some training and enjoy him without worrying about the time and money to get him a top performance career unless being an owner for another rider is really your goal. Going forward, for a while, I’d ignore his breeding. Get him in training. Get him started. Have a good, knowledgable professional evaluate his conformation, movement, jump, and temperament. He doesn’t need to be a stallion just because he looks nice on paper.
Don’t over analyze what is on paper and forget to realistically evaluate and address the horse in front of you.
weixiao has offered the best advice I have seen in a long time.
A bit of a thread derail, but Tom, I was just looking at your site and your Fiona Bella filly is LOVELY! Wow.
Vineyridge said the same. I am a person who always tends to get stuck in analysis paralysis. But I intend to send the colt to a trainer to be broken in at the beginning of May.
[QUOTE=weixiao;8020788]
I think a lot of us have agreed that your colt has a nice enough pedigree. However, that is only one teeny, tiny piece of the puzzle. Nice breeding is really just paper at the end of the day. If you really want your colt to be a stallion prospect, he needs a performance record and he needs to get approved by a studbook. I wouldn’t worry about his breeding any more for the time being. Decide if you want to start him this year and get him to someone who can start him well. Start saving, because he’s going to need to go into training and start competing within the next couple of years and that won’t be cheap. He will have zero value as a stallion hanging out in a field, or with limited performance and visibility. I personally think you are going to enjoy him a lot more if you don’t worry about making him a stallion prospect, geld him, and just get him in some training and enjoy him without worrying about the time and money to get him a top performance career unless being an owner for another rider is really your goal. Going forward, for a while, I’d ignore his breeding. Get him in training. Get him started. Have a good, knowledgable professional evaluate his conformation, movement, jump, and temperament. He doesn’t need to be a stallion just because he looks nice on paper.
Don’t over analyze what is on paper and forget to realistically evaluate and address the horse in front of you.[/QUOTE]
By the way I saw a mare this weekend. She is by this stallion who also seems to go back to the Byerly Turk line
http://www.horsetelex.de//horses/pedigree/199063
[QUOTE=Manni01;8023839]
By the way I saw a mare this weekend. She is by this stallion who also seems to go back to the Byerly Turk line
http://www.horsetelex.de//horses/pedigree/199063[/QUOTE]
Nope. Goes back to Bay Ronald through Bayardo, which means that he goes back to Eclipse through Whalebone/Camel.
I cannot see how being related to a horse born in 1680 would have give your horse any special attribute. I am surprized that it even crossed your mind that a horse which is 24 generations back would have an impact on his desireability as a modern day stallion.
It is all about performance. In the sport horse world, or on the track – people want to breed to a stallion who can directly pass on performance genes.
A good stallion makes a great gelding.
But if you read the mare line, it says Byerley Turk at the bottom… I have no idea about TBs, so I probably got this wrong… Sorry
[QUOTE=Manni01;8024231]
But if you read the mare line, it says Byerley Turk at the bottom… I have no idea about TBs, so I probably got this wrong… Sorry[/QUOTE]
It’s not going back to Byerly Turk in general that it is rare, but direct male descendants along the tail male line, like the OP’s horse, are incredibly rare.
The idea is that direct male descendants should possess the “same” Y chromosome as Byerly Turk himself, which is of debatable importance. His autosomal genes are well established in every single branch of the breed.
[QUOTE=Elles;8007313]
I do not expect to be making money but it would be nice if his career could be paid for by what he earns or almost.
I love the TB breed and I find it a shame that there are hardly any (left) in my country.
But I am not hell bent on this, he could as well be a nice gelding for me to use for riding. That would save me a lot of hassle and risk :D.[/QUOTE]
He’s a nice type and I love his pedigree—but then I’m an event rider (and breeder). He’s welcome to come live on my farm here in the US ;). He looks built to jump a good fence and a nice event type.
Around here…all our top riders do NOT want the WBs. They really want a good full TBs. If looking at the WB…they want them 75% blood or higher if possible. THAT is the current direction of the market. It may change tomorrow…and it is probably different in Holland. They are taking on the others mostly for resale…but for their 4* prospects…they want more blood.
How about exploring having him collected and frozen. Then focus on his sport career.
His best market will be eventing not racing as he doesn’t have as commercial of race pedigree. Although talk to some of the race breeders.
Here is a thought for the topic.
Sometimes a line is rare because of a war or the lines were lost during an absence of use. But you have to wonder why that line was not used more in the last 300 years. It would have only taken a really good sire or two along the way to make the line less rare.
So the question becomes, is the line rare because the stallions associated with it were not as desirable as their counterparts?
No disrespect for the OP’s horse.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8024408]
Here is a thought for the topic.
Sometimes a line is rare because of a war or the lines were lost during an absence of use. But you have to wonder why that line was not used more in the last 300 years. It would have only taken a really good sire or two along the way to make the line less rare.
So the question becomes, is the line rare because the stallions associated with it were not as desirable as their counterparts?
No disrespect for the OP’s horse.[/QUOTE]
In the case of TBs… line is more often rare because it isn’t commercial for racing. In particular, with rise of the futurity class (Kentucky Derby etc)…the racing industry prefers quick maturing lines.
Look at the loss/rarity of great TB sport lines like Bonne Nuit. Until fairly recently…breeding for eventing was not profitable. So TB sport breeding has not been big—especially when one could more affordably buy something off the track. This is why I think some of the sport lines have been lost. It is only when those same lines both produced well for racing, were commercially desirable for racing…that they continued.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8024422]
In the case of TBs… line is more often rare because it isn’t commercial for racing. In particular, with rise of the futurity class (Kentucky Derby etc)…the racing industry prefers quick maturing lines.
Look at the loss/rarity of great TB sport lines like Bonne Nuit. Until fairly recently…breeding for eventing was not profitable. So TB sport breeding has not been big—especially when one could more affordably buy something off the track. This is why I think some of the sport lines have been lost. It is only when those same lines both produced well for racing, were commercially desirable for racing…that they continued.[/QUOTE]
Possible.
The futurity races are a more recent thing so that doesn’t explain the first 200 years. And you have to wonder if the eventing lines were not good for the track, why didn’t eventers use them in breeding programs?
If they were good on the track, that would actually be a reason not to see them in sport. But if a young stallion was known for throwing a jump, but not good for racing, why weren’t they used?
I am not sure that buying randomly off the track would have been as cheap as a Tb program that gave you a higher rate of success?
Am I wrong? Did eventer’s 30 years old rather buy 4 that probably won’t work or 1 that has a good chance of working out?
Three year old racing like the Derbies became really important with the demise of heat racing in England in the 1840s (or 1820s) and really didn’t become that important in the US until the 1870s. The Byerley Turk line is famous for being slow maturing. It survived as a sire line only in France for a couple of human generations, IIRC–and it was also rather famous for stamina which goes along with slow maturation. When I say stamina, I’m talking about races that are from 2 to 3 1/2 miles long and longer. Bonne Cause and the sire of her son Bonne Nuit were both French bred, each from one of the two surviving Byerley Turk/Herod lines. In the end, both of their lines go back to the Herod line from Woodpecker, and I seem to recall that the founders of those lines were full brothers by Buzzard out of the Alexander Mare of 1790.
Three year old racing like the Derbies became really important with the demise of heat racing in England in the 1840s and really didn’t become that important in the US until the 1870s. The Byerley Turk line is famous for being slow maturing. It survived as a sire line only in France for a couple of human generations, IIRC–and it was also rather famous for stamina which goes along with slow maturation. When I say stamina, I’m talking about races that are from 2 to 3 1/2 miles long and longer. Bonne Cause and the sire of her son Bonne Nuit were both French bred, each from one of the two surviving Byerley Turk lines, In the end, both of their lines go back to the Herod line from Woodpecker, and I seem to recall that both of the founders of those lines were brothers out of the Alexander Mare of 1790.
Manni, in the early days of the TB, mares were rarely named, usually only if they raced themselves. They were considered of value only as the conduit for the male’s progeny. In Gonzales’s pedigree, he traces back to a daughter of the Byerley Turk (Byerley Turk Mare) who was out of a mare by Bustler (Bustler Mare). This is FF8.
The Alexander Mare was by Alexander (Eclipse son) out of a Highflyer Mare. Highflyer was by Herod. In her case, going back there are four generations of unnamed mares before you finally find one who has a name. Makes it really hard to keep track of pedigrees when there are many mares without names and known by only by their sire who, of course, could have had many, many daughters. For Instance, there are ten Byerley Turk Mares that made into the GSB, and not one of their dams had a name.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8024484]
Possible.
The futurity races are a more recent thing so that doesn’t explain the first 200 years. And you have to wonder if the eventing lines were not good for the track, why didn’t eventers use them in breeding programs?
If they were good on the track, that would actually be a reason not to see them in sport. But if a young stallion was known for throwing a jump, but not good for racing, why weren’t they used?
I am not sure that buying randomly off the track would have been as cheap as a Tb program that gave you a higher rate of success?
Am I wrong? Did eventer’s 30 years old rather buy 4 that probably won’t work or 1 that has a good chance of working out?[/QUOTE]
With only live cover, no AI it is easy to see why lines not commercial for racing easily drop off.
Eventers have typically bought off the track as it is significantly cheaper and historically very successful for a long time. It isn’t buying randomly. It is just not buying purpose bred but focused more on buying the horse in front of you. Added to that, many do know what lines we like but typically, folks bought based more on conformation than pedigree.
Very very few bred specifically for eventing. Some ISHs but even then (and honestly now), eventers just don’t pay as much so and most breeders have not focused on breeding specifically for eventing.
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