Racing in the US has traditionally been very different from racing in Europe. We developed our traditions at the same time they were developing theirs. In the 1800s here there were very short races and heat races which were usually multiple long races on the same day. When heat races died, their replacements were usually nowhere near the length of many races that survived and survive in Europe. Basically the vast majority of American races demand speed, not stamina.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/SireLineschts/SireLineBT.html
If you look at horses from around 1865 you can see that often they have a higher percentage of Herod blood than they have of Eclipse.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=547886&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=763410&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=685990&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=39517&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=534493&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=639504&blood=10"a=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=121678&blood=10"a=
http://turflore.com/blog/byerley-turk-still-hanging-on
http://www.agakhanstuds.com/history/hors.asp?hcode=199000249
Thank you bornfreenowexpensive. I especially wanted to have this particular horse because of his neckset. In Holland most people love a horse with a more “vertical” kind of neckset instead of horizontal. Not a lot of Thoroughbred horses have that kind of “high front”.
By the way, he also has a nice hind end.
http://www.jwequine.com/download/eventing/Conformation-Eventer.pdf
Horses with a high point of shoulder usual¬ly do not have a low-set neck. A neck set well above the point of shoulder not only helps the horse lighten the forehand, it makes using the neck as a counter-balance in take-off and landing much easier for the eventer and the jumper. Imagine how difficult this would be if the point of shoulder and the neck were set low.
In Holland eventing riders do like a horse sired by Roven xx. But because we hardly have any TB mares around these horses are out of WB mares.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8024311]
He’s a nice type and I love his pedigree—but then I’m an event rider (and breeder). He’s welcome to come live on my farm here in the US ;). He looks built to jump a good fence and a nice event type.
Around here…all our top riders do NOT want the WBs. They really want a good full TBs. If looking at the WB…they want them 75% blood or higher if possible. THAT is the current direction of the market. It may change tomorrow…and it is probably different in Holland. They are taking on the others mostly for resale…but for their 4* prospects…they want more blood.
How about exploring having him collected and frozen. Then focus on his sport career.
His best market will be eventing not racing as he doesn’t have as commercial of race pedigree. Although talk to some of the race breeders.[/QUOTE]
I also like his lower set hocks and stifle placement. He is a very nice young horse. If you develop him, there may be a market for him in your area. But of course it is harder to actually make a profit with a stud anywhere.
We do have more TB sport sires and more TB mares as our mare base in the US. Not with his pedigree but still some very good horses. If US breeders focused on eventing I do think we could be a powerhouse. The issue in the US is the cost of raising and producing. We have a real lack of affordable riders that have the skills to bring along young horses. And our market really puts the burden on the breeder to produce the young horse. I’m talking about producing top international caliber horses. Hopefully that is changing.
If you are really intending to aim him for the eventing market and to have so appeal for international market, I think you need to aim to develop him toward Le Lion. See how he progresses but that is his competition as a stud.
ETA: if it is too expensive to keep him as a colt, and develop at least toward Le Lion (assuming he has the talent and his training goes well) then I would either collect him and geld or just geld so you can focus on just bringing him along. I do think bringing a stallion up is harder but he will need to prove himself a bit in sport for people to bred to him.
Forget about him being a colt now- get him into training and see how he copes. You really need to get him out and proving himself before you think about standing him at stud.
I think we have to find ourselves a good sponsor :D.
If he turns out to be a good performer I think I might be able to find people who would be willing to invest in him (hopefully!).
Okay, I have decided to have him gelded. The swelling on his hock is a big problem, even though he is sound.
An other problem is that he develops so slowly. When he has been gelded he is allowed to go on the pasture at the place where he is now. On the pasture he could do some more growing and developing. He is no longer allowed on the pasture as an entire now that he is three years old. As an entire he must in May go to the trainingstable I found, even if he is not ready yet to be trained. I do not know where else I could leave him as a rather immature three year old entire. The training stable is of course a lot more expensive than when he stays where he is and goes on the pasture for a number of months.
Elles,
I remember you mentioned in one of the threads that Joop Van Uytert was going to evaluate your colt. I would love to know how it went if you are open to sharing.
I also bred a colt that I wanted to use to incorporate more TB in my herd. I have no desire to keep a stallion, so I had him frozen at the local University when he was three and then gelded him. It was very reasonable, aprox. $75 a dose for 15 doses. Well worth it to me and that was plenty for my personal use. I have two offspring on the ground and will be using it again this season. I couldn’t be happier with my results.
Good luck with your boy! 
Hi Tuckawayfarm,
I sent Mr. Van Uytert an e-mail to tell him about the swelling. He asked me if I could send him a picture of how it looks from the outside. His response to the picture was that he thought the swelling is rather visible. That is all he wrote, nothing more. But I understood that it being rather visible is a bad thing.
Thank you for wishing me good luck!
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8018228]
I also recently read something by a sj course designer who said until recently courses were all designed on a 12’ stride. Now the striding may range from 8’ to 15’ in the same course and horse have to be able to shorten and lengthen and still jump the height.
At least Palacios admits that “today the courses are DESIGNED for warmbloods.”[/QUOTE]
The courses are designed for warmbloods. I’m glad to see someone admit they are too. The ability to lengthen and shorten in stadium is going to be much more an issue of rideability than physical ability for TB horses at eventing stadium jumping heights.
I remember watching the steeplechase in Atlanta; the brush went up to 6’ IIRC and was very stiff so most of the horses were just flying over the whole thing. Not jumping a stadium jump from a coiled stride but still very impressive. They made it look so easy.
Elles good luck with your horse, and I hope you enjoy him!
Thank you, I know for certain I am going to enjoy him!
Why would a TB not be able to shorten and lengthen stride?
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/4h1062/$FILE/4h_jumping_p4.pdf
http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/2014%20ICP%20Ocala%20Symposium%20with%20Aaron%20Vale.pdf
http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/how-do-i-make-the-horse-strides-down-the-lines
http://secondchancethoroughbreds.com/eventing/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-country_equestrianism
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/showjumping-with-jamie-kurmond/
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8074082]
The courses are designed for warmbloods. I’m glad to see someone admit they are too. The ability to lengthen and shorten in stadium is going to be much more an issue of rideability than physical ability for TB horses at eventing stadium jumping heights.
I remember watching the steeplechase in Atlanta; the brush went up to 6’ IIRC and was very stiff so most of the horses were just flying over the whole thing. Not jumping a stadium jump from a coiled stride but still very impressive. They made it look so easy.
Elles good luck with your horse, and I hope you enjoy him![/QUOTE]
I always ear that excuse and I think it is wrong. I have read that quote from Palacios, and it is taken out of a long article on the warmblood’s evolution in the sport. You can read that article below.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/12/how-the-warmblood-conquered-the-english-speaking-world/
First thing, he didn’t say they were Designed for warmbloods, they were made for warmbloods. English is not my first language, and it is not Pallacio’s either, but I see a difference between both. It is not as dought the warmblood did not dominate in the older courses. They still did, but the thoroughbreds of the time were also able to compete honnestly with them. But, as it is well said in the article, the sport of showjumping evolved through the years. You cannot indefinitaly increase the height of the fences on an easyer course. So course designer changed strategies, putting upo together much more technical courses, with flat cups, no ground lines, lighter poles, changes in distances etc. The warmblood evolved with the sport, but the TB obviously did not. They were able to compete over the easier courses when they were allowed to jump big fences from a standard and regular 12 strides, going forward.
Warmbloods evolved with the sport and TB did not. Now, they are no longer well suited for the most difficult courses. It is not a biase of the course designer, it is simply that the best horses prevailed when courses became mor difficult.
[QUOTE=Elles;8074236]
Thank you, I know for certain I am going to enjoy him!
Why would a TB not be able to shorten and lengthen stride?
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/4h1062/$FILE/4h_jumping_p4.pdf[/QUOTE]
They most certainly can!
[QUOTE=Cumano;8074241]
I always ear that excuse and I think it is wrong. I have read that quote from Palacios, and it is taken out of a long article on the warmblood’s evolution in the sport. You can read that article below.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/12/how-the-warmblood-conquered-the-english-speaking-world/
First thing, he didn’t say they were Designed for warmbloods, they were made for warmbloods. English is not my first language, and it is not Pallacio’s either, but I see a difference between both. It is not as dought the warmblood did not dominate in the older courses. They still did, but the thoroughbreds of the time were also able to compete honnestly with them. But, as it is well said in the article, the sport of showjumping evolved through the years. You cannot indefinitaly increase the height of the fences on an easyer course. So course designer changed strategies, putting upo together much more technical courses, with flat cups, no ground lines, lighter poles, changes in distances etc. The warmblood evolved with the sport, but the TB obviously did not. They were able to compete over the easier courses when they were allowed to jump big fences from a standard and regular 12 strides, going forward.
Warmbloods evolved with the sport and TB did not. Now, they are no longer well suited for the most difficult courses. It is not a biase of the course designer, it is simply that the best horses prevailed when courses became mor difficult.[/QUOTE]
Was Palacois talking about eventing courses or show jumping courses? I was talking about eventing because that was the subject of the thread when I posted. It doesn’t really matter I guess, because both types are designed/ made for warmbloods. In eventing the sport has “evolved” so that a pure TB isn’t as likely to win anymore, mostly because of the increased value of the dressage score.
I’ve been watching eventing for decades now, and and I believe that courses are being designed for warmbloods now, just as show jumping is. Sorry, splitting hairs are being made for versus being designed for just seems kind of silly to me.
Naturally courses are being designed for the type of horses Europeans are breeding today. Europeans dominate dressage and show jumping breeding and courses are just another way to promote their horses’ traits. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I’m just puzzled when people don’t acknowledge it.
If the TB hasn’t evolved as a breed (because of course there are still done successfully competing at 1.6m), it’s because breeders haven’t taken an interest in them outside of racing. Clearly the talent and potential for show jumping were and are there. It’s not so much a question of power but the trajectory the power goes in that makes the difference between warmbloods and many TBs at the top levels.
Palacio is famous a showjumping course designer. The whole article was about show jumping.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8074280]
Palacio is famous a showjumping course designer. The whole article was about show jumping.[/QUOTE]
Read my post above. I just finished editing it.
Some of the fences in the Grand Steeple Chase de Paris are enormous. I think one of the jumps is 1.95 metres high (hauteur). It takes special horses to jump these fences during a race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4QxNMFU5E
http://www.grandsteeple.com/au-coeurs-des-obstacles.html
I do not agree with what you say. If, as you say, courses are designed to fit the horses bred, than horses would simply not evolve… And the old, heavy courses of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were well suited for the big, powerfull, cold blooded warmbloods of that era. On one side, you keep bringing arguments about the warmblood horse of today having more blood in it as it has ever had before, while remaining convinced that the courses are being shaped for them, at the detriment of the TB, and on top pof that you are still arguing that more TB is needed to today’s warmblood breeding.
I do not know much about Eventing so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. BUt with regards to showjumping, of which I can say I know quite a bit, I believe it simply makes no sense. Breeders everywhere are monitoring the sport, trying to produce the horse that will be required 10 years from now, when their foals will be at the top of their sporting careers. Course designing has nothing to do with promoting one breed over another. It has to do with sport. The sport has evolved in becoming more and more difficult, and the best horses just keep winning. They were wining 50 years ago, when a horse could plow the field during the week and win a GP on sunday, and they are still winning now, over the most difficult courses, against the best riders and trainers in the world.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8074351]
I do not agree with what you say. If, as you say, courses are designed to fit the horses bred, than horses would simply not evolve… And the old, heavy courses of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were well suited for the big, powerfull, cold blooded warmbloods of that era. On one side, you keep bringing arguments about the warmblood horse of today having more blood in it as it has ever had before, while remaining convinced that the courses are being shaped for them, at the detriment of the TB, and on top pof that you are still arguing that more TB is needed to today’s warmblood breeding.
I do not know much about Eventing so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. BUt with regards to showjumping, of which I can say I know quite a bit, I believe it simply makes no sense. Breeders everywhere are monitoring the sport, trying to produce the horse that will be required 10 years from now, when their foals will be at the top of their sporting careers. Course designing has nothing to do with promoting one breed over another. It has to do with sport. The sport has evolved in becoming more and more difficult, and the best horses just keep winning. They were wining 50 years ago, when a horse could plow the field during the week and win a GP on sunday, and they are still winning now, over the most difficult courses, against the best riders and trainers in the world.[/QUOTE]
Seriously, dude, stop it with the nonsense. Warmbloods overall today can use more of the traits that the TB has to offer, and some TBs can still jump courses designed for warmbloods. If more TBs were being purpose bred for jumping, there would very likely be just as many of them winning at show jumping today as warmbloods.
If courses weren’t being designed for the horses, then horses today might already be obsolete by the time they are competitive. Considering the design, size and success of the European breeding “machine” somehow I think that isn’t going to happen. It simply doesn’t make any sense for the breeding and course design not to go hand in hand.
I like how you seem to be discounting all of the success TBs have had in show jumping. That’s funny. They were also among the best in the 50s through the 90s, when American riders rode them, before Americans started buying “made” horses relatively cheaply from Europe in the 80s and continued from there.
I’m pretty sure you meant warmbloods are winning WITH the best riders and trainers in the world.
Also, warmbloods weren’t “cold-blooded” in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I don’t know where you got that from. Europeans started adding a lot of blood to their horses after WW II. In fact, out of curiosity I just looked back over the Olympic medalists from 1960 to 1988. There are pure TBs among the medal winners: Snowbound, Sloopy, Branch County, Touch of Class, and Gem Twist. Posillipo, gold medal winner in 1960, was by a TB sire and Sunsalve, the bronze medalist in 1960, was 3/4 TB. The gold medal winner in 1964, Lutteur, was sired by the TB Ultimate. The gold medal winner in 1968 was Snowbound, an American TB. The silver medalist was Stroller, a TB/Connemara cross. The bronze medalist was Mister Softee, who was Irish bred so I wouldn’t be surprised if his sire was TB. In 1972 the gold medalist was Ambassador, an Irish bred by the TB Nordlys; silver medalist was Psalm, by the TB sire Sermon; bronze medalist was Sloopy, an American TB. In 1976 the gold medalist was Warwick Rex, a Hanoverian with 25% blood, with the TB blood mostly from before 1900. The silver medalist was the American TB Branch County. In 1980 the gold medalist was Artemor, an Anglo-Arabian by the TB sire Eros, the silver medalist was Espadron, a Russian Trakehner with 62% blood, mostly AA, and the bronze medalist was Jessica V, an Irish bred by a TB sire. In 1988 the gold was won by Jappeloup, SF by a Trotter out of a TB mare, the silver medalist was the American TB Gem Twist, and the bronze medalist was Nepomuk, a Bayern whose sire was 3/4 TB. I couldn’t find the pedigrees of The Rock (silver medal 1960), Dozent (silver 1964), Firecrest (bronze, 1964), Gai Luron (bronze 1976, Belgian bred), and Alymony (bronze, 1980). But I found the pedigrees of most of the medal winners and they were either full TB, 3/4 TB, half TB, or a warmblood with the same amount of blood you’d see today and quite blood in type.
This is the last time I’m replying to you on this thread. This thread is supposed to be about Elles’ horse, not about how some breeders don’t want to use Thoroughbreds.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8074351]
I do not agree with what you say. If, as you say, courses are designed to fit the horses bred, than horses would simply not evolve… And the old, heavy courses of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were well suited for the big, powerfull, cold blooded warmbloods of that era. On one side, you keep bringing arguments about the warmblood horse of today having more blood in it as it has ever had before, while remaining convinced that the courses are being shaped for them, at the detriment of the TB, and on top pof that you are still arguing that more TB is needed to today’s warmblood breeding.
I do not know much about Eventing so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. BUt with regards to showjumping, of which I can say I know quite a bit, I believe it simply makes no sense. Breeders everywhere are monitoring the sport, trying to produce the horse that will be required 10 years from now, when their foals will be at the top of their sporting careers. Course designing has nothing to do with promoting one breed over another. It has to do with sport. The sport has evolved in becoming more and more difficult, and the best horses just keep winning. They were wining 50 years ago, when a horse could plow the field during the week and win a GP on sunday, and they are still winning now, over the most difficult courses, against the best riders and trainers in the world.[/QUOTE]
Good post.
It is evident that you have experience with the sport and knowledge of breeding.
