[QUOTE=freestyle2music;3482002]
I think the way he wears his hair is showing to the wold “his middlefinger” .[/QUOTE]
I thought he was trying to cultivate an 80s rocker look ; )
cough
I think he’s got more brains than the average population plus a heritage of 'knowhow ’ in the competitive sports industry- the hair doesn’t bother me- it seems very fine to me- because I really couldn’t care less about how someone wants to look- as long as their body stats don’t interfere with their chosen sport…live and let live…please folks - grow up…the next generation will leave you in the dust- if you dont…LOL!!!
Sjef has innovated the sport and what the fritz would we even be talking about if he didn’t exist???
[QUOTE=Sabine;3482331]
Sjef has innovated the sport and what the fritz would we even be talking about if he didn’t exist???[/QUOTE]
Oh, I dunno, perhaps horses that are schooled correctly and humanely and not with brute force and cruelty? He may have ‘innovated’ the sport, but not in a good way.
[QUOTE=Sabine;3482331]
I think he’s got more brains than the average population plus a heritage of 'knowhow ’ in the competitive sports industry- the hair doesn’t bother me- it seems very fine to me- because I really couldn’t care less about how someone wants to look- as long as their body stats don’t interfere with their chosen sport…live and let live…please folks - grow up…the next generation will leave you in the dust- if you dont…LOL!!!
Sjef has innovated the sport and what the fritz would we even be talking about if he didn’t exist???[/QUOTE]
Sabine, I don’t really care about his hair or his clothes! I was only teasing! I used to be a fashion designer and have had my hair just about every color you can imagine at one point or another, including a few in the punk spectrum (this was in London and Paris – a while ago!). I am all for individual style. And I like Duran Duran and Rod Stewart ; ).
[QUOTE=AiryFairy;3483216]
Oh, I dunno, perhaps horses that are schooled correctly and humanely and not with brute force and cruelty? He may have ‘innovated’ the sport, but not in a good way.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I have to ask. Is there any evidence that he uses brute force and cruelty to train horses as opposed to acceptable methods? Can you give me an example of brute force and cruel? I am asking sincerely, because people have different notions of what constitutes cruelty (some PETA types, for example, might think horse ownership is per se cruel and riding them per se brutal). Others point to Roll***, etc. I just want to be sure we are all on the same page here. I also would like to know if there is any legitimate basis for these statements, or if they are just assumptions based on rumors based on yet more assumptions based on a suspicion.
It’s not just about rolling horses’ necks… Would be bad enough if it were. I honestly hope the man gets some kind of therapy one day 
His vocabulary is offensive, he has a significant lack of self control which has often enough been displayed in public and semi-public. The people to feel sorry for really are his closest relatives.
[quote=Kareen;3483443 I honestly hope the man gets some kind of therapy one day His vocabulary is offensive, he has a significant lack of self control which has often enough been displayed in public and semi-public. The people to feel sorry for really are his closest relatives.
[/quote]
Sounds like you’re describing John McEnroe. :yes:
[QUOTE=Pommederue;3483893]
Sounds like you’re describing John McEnroe. :yes:[/QUOTE]
Funny! I like McEnroe and Rod Stewart, but somehow SJ is just not so cute.
It’s simple, yes I’m pointing to the “R” word - you just look at the pictures of Anky training, sometimes 20 solid minutes of the horse’s chin cranked to his chest with the curb fully employed the whole time, neck broken in the wrong place and flexed beyond what the horse could maintain himself for more than a few seconds. That is only obtained by brute force, the horse is not a willing partner and is not willingly submissive. Forgive the title of this video, it’s not mine, just look at the pictures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLZCG-ctuw
How any decent rider could look at those pictures and NOT see cruelty is amazing to me. To have fashioned this abuse as some sort of “unique training method” is beyond the pale. I consider bad horsemanship to be cruelty.
When you learned to ride with a full bridle, weren’t you taught to ride off the snaffle and just use the curb infrequently for control? I was. So why is it necessary to work a horse for 20 minutes with the curb yanked so tight the horse is gaping his mouth to get away from it? Just because Anky keeps them in a nice dry barn and gives them food does not mean they don’t suffer, and I think Sjef is a brutal trainer. That’s not what classical dressage is supposed to be.
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3483244]
Okay, I have to ask. Is there any evidence that he uses brute force and cruelty to train horses as opposed to acceptable methods? Can you give me an example of brute force and cruel? I am asking sincerely, because people have different notions of what constitutes cruelty (some PETA types, for example, might think horse ownership is per se cruel and riding them per se brutal). Others point to Roll***, etc. I just want to be sure we are all on the same page here. I also would like to know if there is any legitimate basis for these statements, or if they are just assumptions based on rumors based on yet more assumptions based on a suspicion.[/QUOTE]
A wonderfull statement I found on another BB :
Salinero has very flashy movement. Salinero and Anky win over and over and over again. You can gripe all you want to but it starts to sound like you think the judges are all a bunch of idiots. And surely, you don’t think that, do you?
There are only a small number of possibilities:
- people want flashy movements and that is what is rewarded in the show ring
- classical dressage is becoming less relevant to competitive dressage
- the judges are blind or idiots
- what you (any number of “you”) want to see is not in accord with what is looked for at international competitions
- Salinero/Anky really are just that good but you don’t like the training method so you pick apart the ride
Most threads here act like the issue is 3)…the judges are blind or idiots.
You have forgotten a number of possibilities.
-
“Flashy” means the horse lifts his legs and bends his knees, and this is associated with saddlebred and gaited horses, which are considered the anathema of dressage, some sort of evil, cruel, degenerate horse torture created by spraying fire extinguishers at the horses and putting 2-3 lb shoes on each of their feet, together with overdosing them on steroids til they founder, and, perhaps borrowed from other types of riding, putting some sort of painful acid on their legs, oh, and tieing their heads up like Black Beauty’s friend Ginger, who in the book, ‘Black Beauty’, died. Tragically. For man’s vanity alone. What was man’s vanity? Trying to make him ‘flashy’.
-
“Flashy” means the horse picks up his legs and bends his knees, which means that he is not relaxed, and he is unhappy.
-
“Flashy” means the horse does not look like a show hunter or a Western Pleasure horse, which is what most Americans rode before they got interested in dressage. In those types of riding, what most people have absorbed is that the horse must never lift his head or his knees and hocks. DOWN BOY DOWN! When they got into dressage, they assumed that any horse that lifted its legs was ‘incorrect’ and ‘wrongly trained’. They continued to think this, regardless of what other information might be available. Looking at all the horses around them, who are shuffling along with straight legs, confirms their opinion.
-
"Flashy’, if due to a horse naturally having a round, active stride that is accentuated by collection, extra energy and the exciting show atmosphere, looks ‘wrong’ to most American riders, even those with years of dressage experience - at intro, training and first level.
-
Upper level dressage, as well as lower level dressage, is judged exactly as Western Pleasure and Lady’s Pleasure is judged at saddle club shows all over the USA - the judge stands in the middle of the ring and watches like a hawk to be sure the horse NEVER lifts his head or his knees, and is ‘consistent’, which is to say, he never shows any signs of life, and goes around and around the ring like a battery operated pull toy.
-
Anything Anky van Grunsven’s horses do is wrong, and is seen ‘Through a Glass Darkly’.
-
Andalusians, Lipizanners, Friesians, Lusitanos and other breeds lift their knees and legs, but they are Baroque, so it’s ok when they do it. Warmbloods shouldn’t be lifting their legs. When they do, they are unhappy, tense, or incorrectly trained.
-
The reason the judges don’t see how terribly wrong Anky’s horses are, is that, completely out of character with the usual vehemently held opinionatedness of most dressage judges that they were put on this earth to smite and humiliate ANYONE who doesn’t do the classical principles of dressage correctly (take a lesson from one of them sometime if you doubt they’re on that particular mission), they just - for no particular reason other than she stinks and had two brothers who had jumpers - LIKE her. So they just hand her score after score after score of perfection, even though she is absolute shit. Because every one of them is corrupt, blind, and all they want to do is sell horses, and SOMEHOW - Anky helps them do that.
:lol:
[QUOTE=slc2;3485003]
You have forgotten a number of possibilities.
-
“Flashy” means the horse lifts his legs and bends his knees, and this is associated with saddlebred and gaited horses, which are considered the anathema of dressage, some sort of evil, cruel, degenerate horse torture created by spraying fire extinguishers at the horses and putting 2-3 lb shoes on each of their feet, together with overdosing them on steroids til they founder, and, perhaps borrowed from other types of riding, putting some sort of painful acid on their legs, oh, and tieing their heads up like Black Beauty’s friend Ginger, who in the book, ‘Black Beauty’, died. Tragically. For man’s vanity alone. What was man’s vanity? Trying to make him ‘flashy’.
-
“Flashy” means the horse picks up his legs and bends his knees, which means that he is not relaxed, and he is unhappy.
-
“Flashy” means the horse does not look like a show hunter or a Western Pleasure horse, which is what most Americans rode before they got interested in dressage. In those types of riding, what most people have absorbed is that the horse must never lift his head or his knees and hocks. DOWN BOY DOWN! When they got into dressage, they assumed that any horse that lifted its legs was ‘incorrect’ and ‘wrongly trained’. They continued to think this, regardless of what other information might be available. Looking at all the horses around them, who are shuffling along with straight legs, confirms their opinion.
-
"Flashy’, if due to a horse naturally having a round, active stride that is accentuated by collection, extra energy and the exciting show atmosphere, looks ‘wrong’ to most American riders, even those with years of dressage experience - at intro, training and first level.
-
Upper level dressage, as well as lower level dressage, is judged exactly as Western Pleasure and Lady’s Pleasure is judged at saddle club shows all over the USA - the judge stands in the middle of the ring and watches like a hawk to be sure the horse NEVER lifts his head or his knees, and is ‘consistent’, which is to say, he never shows any signs of life, and goes around and around the ring like a battery operated pull toy.
-
Anything Anky van Grunsven’s horses do is wrong, and is seen ‘Through a Glass Darkly’.
-
Andalusians, Lipizanners, Friesians, Lusitanos and other breeds lift their knees and legs, but they are Baroque, so it’s ok when they do it. Warmbloods shouldn’t be lifting their legs. When they do, they are unhappy, tense, or incorrectly trained.
-
The reason the judges don’t see how terribly wrong Anky’s horses are, is that, completely out of character with the usual vehemently held opinionatedness of most dressage judges that they were put on this earth to smite and humiliate ANYONE who doesn’t do the classical principles of dressage correctly (take a lesson from one of them sometime if you doubt they’re on that particular mission), they just - for no particular reason other than she stinks and had two brothers who had jumpers - LIKE her. So they just hand her score after score after score of perfection, even though she is absolute shit. Because every one of them is corrupt, blind, and all they want to do is sell horses, and SOMEHOW - Anky helps them do that.
:lol: [/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol:
I may need to have this laminated and post it in my barn.
What the heck are you talking about? I l-o-v-e Salinero. I’m a Hanoverian breeder for heaven’s sake?! Seriously I think you are way off base with your sarcasm here. I yet have to see a post from anybody who does not adore these horse’s qualities?
Kareen…have you…have you been living on K-Pax for a very long time?
The only thing people hate more than Anky is Salinero.
It’s all in the media. Rembrandt was adored, a media darling, the OH I LOFF HIM horse of the century for the bulletin boards, 10 times tougher, 10 times spookier, Nicole Uphoff had ten times as many bugs in her teeth from that thing exiting stage left from the ring and running back to the barn, NOT just to the bumper car cop horses, but BACK TO THE BARN, over and over, and trained even more in hyperflexion than Salinero.
What was the difference?
Rembrandt was cuter. Nicole had little teeth.
YL, laminate away. I may be despised, but many people BLEAN on my quotes.
No idea what K-Pax is. Remember we aren’t all medical happy in this country LOL. But no I don’t see Salinero as being hated at all. Besides if he was that doesn’t have anything to do with Mr.Janssen does it?
The Verband was quite happy to put Salinero and rider on the cover of ‘Der Hannoveraner’ even repeatedly if I am not mistaken and there are a ton of Salinero fans out here. You are really creating quite a myth here. Maybe it’s you who should have a close checkup with your medical cabinet?
Anyways why not just stick to the topic and take this into one of the gazillion Anky van Grunsven or Salinero topics opened by our dear Theo 
I like Salinero. I am not sure I would want to be the one up on him all the time, but I like him with Anky.
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3485162]
I like Salinero. I am not sure I would want to be the one up on him all the time, but I like him with Anky.[/QUOTE]
Salinero was sold to the US and returned to Anky because nobody could ride him:yes::yes::yes:
“Rembrandt was cuter. Nicole had little teeth.”
There weren’t a lot of BB’s in 1992, so perhaps not so much of the microscopic internet dissection of riders from that era went on.
Lucky them hehe.
