There wasn’t a lot of pretty internet at the time, but I’ve been on the internet since the early 80’s, it’s been there, just not as popular.
but I’ve been on the internet since the early 80’s
Such stamina. How do you do it? Do you have shares in Depends? 
[QUOTE=slc2;3485423]
There wasn’t a lot of pretty internet at the time, but I’ve been on the internet since the early 80’s, it’s been there, just not as popular.[/QUOTE]
I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.
Of course there was internet. There has been internet since the 1960’s.
However, there was little to no discussion of international or other riders in that time, nor was there the audience and resultant impact which exists today.
[QUOTE=hum;3485571]
I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.
Of course there was internet. There has been internet since the 1960’s.
However, there was little to no discussion of international or other riders in that time, nor was there the audience and resultant impact which exists today.[/QUOTE]
Wait a minute there has been internet since the 60’s?
I thought Gore invented the internet:lol:
I believe the internet sites for dressage were under sports/dressage. There was a lot of very lively chat, actually, but a much smaller group than these days. I think that was on the arpanet, and it was text based.
“I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.”
It was very much like today, just fewer people - but there was a lot of discussion of international competition, actually.
[QUOTE=slc2;3485706]
I believe the internet sites for dressage were under sports/dressage. There was a lot of very lively chat, actually, but a much smaller group than these days. I think that was on the arpanet, and it was text based.
“I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.”
It was very much like today, just fewer people - but there was a lot of discussion of international competition, actually.[/QUOTE]
Maybe in the early '90’s. Not the early 80’s. Not unless a lot of university professors, computer geeks, nsf researchers and military guys were having lively discussions about international dressage competition. 
Not that it couldn’t have happened, but I think they were more into gaming.
Flashy movement is easily created through tension and lack of balance, and the increased tempo (de jour) indicates the later. At one time judges were pledged 'to protect horses and the training methods used against methods de jour; (and I believe that has been cleverly removed, just as the mobility of the jaw has been removed as well).
When judges are told to reward mistake free international tests in meetings, they are doing so. So trainers (with little actual riding experience) can cleverly develop quick fix methods and create precisely that. Create flash and submission, and its now a winning combo (literally) because the basics (pure gaits/relaxation/trust/collection) are no longer valued (in many situations). Worse yet, the eye for those things has all but been forgotten (because its been over a generation). Turning a blind eye is easy, and judging submission is SO much easier (at its most basic level look at a 2nd level test with exercises performed with no collection at all, but call it satisfactory+ and everyone is happy).
Traditional training will always be relevant because it works, routinely, and makes the best of those less than naturally talented horses. And talented horses can have huge holes and still managed to perform.
Training methods ARE readily apparent (rk or not, missing elements, shortfalls in equitation, etc) and manifest in performance.
I disagree that none of the judges judge properly any more. It’s a terrible accusation and I think extremely unfair to condemn all dressage judges, and to say that no judge judges right or has a good eye any more.
But they are not rewarding mistake-free tests. They are rewarding flash and brilliance over accuracy and consistency – at least in some instances at the international level. Anky has 3 gold medals. Her last two Olympics were hardly mistake-free. I am not saying that it is necessarily wrong to reward flash, I am just not really sure I have seen any evidence that current trends are a result of a mandate to judges to award mistake-free tests.
And what trainers with little riding experience are coaching international riders? Not Sjef; he was a GP rider. Who?
ideayoda - you sound like you’re really old and are having one of those “things were much better in my day” moments. Just because that’s the way you feel doesn’t mean that real life is that way.
In my opinion athletes these days have raised the level of difficulty and talent over those competing a generation ago, and, sometimes it’s hard for those from the previous era to relate to that. There is always room for improvement and there will always be a better horse or rider - recognize and appreciate that.
P.S.: slc - believe me when I say that folks that used the ARPAnet did NOT engage in realtime dressage discussions. Check you facts before you spout that stuff.
P.P.S.: HUM - you’re my kind of person!! 
[QUOTE=siegi b.;3486149]
ideayoda - you sound like you’re really old and are having one of those “things were much better in my day” moments. Just because that’s the way you feel doesn’t mean that real life is that way.
In my opinion athletes these days have raised the level of difficulty and talent over those competing a generation ago, and, sometimes it’s hard for those from the previous era to relate to that. There is always room for improvement and there will always be a better horse or rider - recognize and appreciate that.
P.S.: slc - believe me when I say that folks that used the ARPAnet did NOT engage in realtime dressage discussions. Check you facts before you spout that stuff.
P.P.S.: HUM - you’re my kind of person!! :-)[/QUOTE]
Right back at you, Siegi.
So what exactly are this S.J.-person’s personal merits in riding? By riding I mean actually sitting on a horse himself and doing something. Are there any pictures/films of horses he trained himself or competed? What did he win and where and when? I’ve never seen his name pop up in any list before he became Mr.Anky van Grunsven. Possibly I’m just not following the results intense enough but I’d love to hear some more details and/or facts about this part of his career? Especially since someone brought up the idea of him becoming national trainer in some other country than the Netherlands giggle
[QUOTE=siegi b.;3486149]
ideayoda - you sound like you’re really old and are having one of those “things were much better in my day” moments. Just because that’s the way you feel doesn’t mean that real life is that way.
In my opinion athletes these days have raised the level of difficulty and talent over those competing a generation ago, and, sometimes it’s hard for those from the previous era to relate to that. There is always room for improvement and there will always be a better horse or rider - recognize and appreciate that.
P.S.: slc - believe me when I say that folks that used the ARPAnet did NOT engage in realtime dressage discussions. Check you facts before you spout that stuff.
P.P.S.: HUM - you’re my kind of person!! :-)[/QUOTE]
BINGO.:D:D:D
[QUOTE=AiryFairy;3484547]
It’s simple, yes I’m pointing to the “R” word - you just look at the pictures of Anky training, sometimes 20 solid minutes of the horse’s chin cranked to his chest with the curb fully employed the whole time, neck broken in the wrong place and flexed beyond what the horse could maintain himself for more than a few seconds. That is only obtained by brute force, the horse is not a willing partner and is not willingly submissive. Forgive the title of this video, it’s not mine, just look at the pictures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLZCG-ctuw
How any decent rider could look at those pictures and NOT see cruelty is amazing to me. To have fashioned this abuse as some sort of “unique training method” is beyond the pale. I consider bad horsemanship to be cruelty.
When you learned to ride with a full bridle, weren’t you taught to ride off the snaffle and just use the curb infrequently for control? I was. So why is it necessary to work a horse for 20 minutes with the curb yanked so tight the horse is gaping his mouth to get away from it? Just because Anky keeps them in a nice dry barn and gives them food does not mean they don’t suffer, and I think Sjef is a brutal trainer. That’s not what classical dressage is supposed to be.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I get a sick feeling in my stomach seeing those videos, photos and seeing it done “in real life.” How can that be fair to a horse? When I ride my G.P. horse, it feels easy and more like a dance. The rolkeur type of training looks ugly and forced. (Legs braced out in front; curb horizontal to the ground; horse’s chin to chest?) I honestly would not let Anky or Sjef sit on my horse. She doesn’t deserve that! (Not that I would ever expect a knock on my barn door, asking for the opportunity! )Again, how can someone look at the rolkeur training “method” and not feel a hint of doubt that it is not fair to the horse? I don’t care if it “wins.” Sometimes the end doesn’t justify the means.
[QUOTE=Kareen;3486376]
So what exactly are this S.J.-person’s personal merits in riding? By riding I mean actually sitting on a horse himself and doing something. Are there any pictures/films of horses he trained himself or competed? What did he win and where and when? I’ve never seen his name pop up in any list before he became Mr.Anky van Grunsven. Possibly I’m just not following the results intense enough but I’d love to hear some more details and/or facts about this part of his career? Especially since someone brought up the idea of him becoming national trainer in some other country than the Netherlands giggle[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding?? There is a tool named Google- it will save me words and give you a nice explanation…
In deutsch sagen wir: Hochmut kommt vor den Fall…in diesem Fall sehr angemessen!- ein bisschen Respekt wuerde einen besseren Eindruck machen!
[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm;3489875]
Agreed. I get a sick feeling in my stomach seeing those videos, photos and seeing it done “in real life.” How can that be fair to a horse? When I ride my G.P. horse, it feels easy and more like a dance. The rolkeur type of training looks ugly and forced. (Legs braced out in front; curb horizontal to the ground; horse’s chin to chest?) I honestly would not let Anky or Sjef sit on my horse. She doesn’t deserve that! (Not that I would ever expect a knock on my barn door, asking for the opportunity! )Again, how can someone look at the rolkeur training “method” and not feel a hint of doubt that it is not fair to the horse? I don’t care if it “wins.” Sometimes the end doesn’t justify the means.[/QUOTE]
I am with you!
Ok let’s see: If I do a search in English for sjef janssen placings the following is the first that pops up:
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/archive/index.php/t-93197.html
Then there’s some stuff about him as a ‘trainer’ plus promo work for AvG’s clothing brand in Japan. Nothing else.
Google search for ‘rider Sjef Janssen’ doesn’t bring up anything either. Has he ever sat on a horse? Can I see video? Hey everything’s on youtube nowadays. There must be ‘something’ no? The leads even go to this very topic where Theo brought up the joke of S.J. being wanted in the sense of desired as a trainer by… well you know what he wrote
A search in German brings up this on page one:
Possibly a polite thank you from Mr. Schmezer for the Lingen incident I don’t know. Sure enough I am proud someone savvy speaks up in public against all this drama.
my post got eaten.
Sjef competed with at least 2 horses @ GP, one of them Olympic Bo, one stallion. Then he met Anky.
I believe sjeff did most of the training on bo.
i think it is almost impossible to compete at the required number of shows, put in the type of mileage and multiple tests (GP, GPS, Freestyle) over the years, what’s required at most competitions at that level, get a horse to react to invisible aids, get a horse that never gets tired and keeps going, without getting a horse that is almost completely bananas.
they are just extremely high energy, brilliant horses, very smart, very, very testing of the rider’s skills, i just don’t think it’s possible without that. I think the most winning horses have always been a little bit crazy, i think they have to be. i also think most of the horses than win and win and win came to their riders by rather odd routes. they were rejected by others, they were very poorly regarded initially (ahlerich), etc.
jan bemelmans had an interesting interview about how he competed on a horse that was not sensitive many years ago and how difficult it was, this was over 30 yrs ago, with less mileage, less travel, fewer shows, a shorter season, and fewer tests, and this is not now with the ‘bad judges who can’t judge’.
Sorry for the hungry board. Thank you for the hint. So Oron was the one and Olympic Bo the other (the later Rothenberger-mount) and he was Dutch champion in 1983 as well as placed 8th individual in European Championships twice (1984 and 1991). That’ll do
