What about top-level eventers? Or by ‘sporthorses’ did Bayhawk mean show jumpers?
The last two posts seem to be directed to a different thread.
cumano, elle’s post doesn’t seem to mention TB dames.
Please forgive my non-WB/non-TB person comment.
I am into Arabians. ALL the TB people back then (40 yrs. or so ago) who did jumpers/hunters (real fox hunters) would tell me that Arabs cannot jump, partially because of their flat croups (among all the other reasons Arabs can’t jump.) They wanted their horses to have a moderately sloping croup that was looong, with well set up hind legs that were straight from the rear view. They were not necessarily against a goose rump so long as the croup itself was long, in fact many of the people back then seemed to think that in the TB a goose rump was infinitely preferable for a good jumper than a TB with a level croup of equal length.
I have come to the conclusion that there is a basic difference in conformation between the European WB breeds and the TB’s, and this difference makes the F1 generation much worse than either parent for the super-specialized horse sports, the croups just don’t seem to blend well and I suspect that the shoulder/forearm does not blend that well either since TBs are not particularly famous for picking their legs way up over a jump.
As I said in an earlier thread, if the WB breeders NEED an out-cross with saddle horse traits and some jumping ability you may find exactly what you need in a carefully selected American Saddlebred Horse, without losing the WB physical traits in the F1 generation. (Note I said CAREFULLY selected, not all ASBs are suitable, but then it seems that NONE of the TBs are suitable for that F1 cross as far a sport horse abilities go.)
Good luck, you will need it. Keeping physical traits that come with an F2 from a TB cross is very difficult if there are no TB crosses, hybrids need BOTH genetic lines. This is just one of the countless difficulties with horse breeding that make it so challenging, how to keep breeding your perfect horses when all the great- grandparents were NOT the type of perfect horse you need. It is so hard to come up with perfection even with true purebreds. I can see how hard it is to keep a hybrid derived trait going in a breed without going back to the out-cross and allowing imperfections to creep in. Either way, breeding in or out-crossing, you lose the perfection you need for at a generation or more. Bummer for the breeder who depends on sales.
I wish you all good luck with this! Maybe God will create a mutant TB stallion that is perfect for crossing with your mares. Until then you have my sympathy.
The funny thing is that in the past often the F1 cross turned out all right but that the problems started in the following generations… At least that is what people always said.
[QUOTE=LaurieB;8049058]
So then the vast majority of Olympic/Grand Prix/4 Star horses that competed in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s were not top sport horses? 
[/QUOTE]
Your success examples are 25 , 35 , 45 , 55 and 65 years ago. No need to say more.
Cornet Obolensky
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/images/cornetobolensky2.jpg
The horses I posted are TOP sires of jumpers
Please note that all ‘stud photos’ are taken with the front hooves on an incline and from slightly behind the girth, which makes the wither look higher, the croup less sloped and longer.
Disliking the yearlings in the OP’s post because they are TBx has nothing to do with the sloping croup question.
No horse wins jump competitions because it was first at the gradings; they are not Sport.
For Pleasure
http://www.a-1performancesires.com/forpleasure.jpg
Don’t get me wrong, I can find plenty of good jumping horses with more level croups, too.
Pictures don’t jump: horses jump.
I agree with the yearling thing.
As I said earlier, my first foal who is 7 this year has filled out and to my eye doesn’t seem to have a “sloping croup” like he may have had when he was younger.
But his full brother who is turning 3, still has quite a slope. He is also much bigger and less mature then the older brother.
I am happy with my crosses either way, I am just interested in these discussions when it comes to conformation and athleticism.
Interesting looking at all those top athletes from the Vegas World Cup.
Loved Couleur Rubin when I watched him go, but looking at his conformation, don’t love something about him. Can’t put my finger on it.
Interesting that to me Shutterfly looks like he has a sloping croup. And you can’t tell me that horse has no scope!!!
Keep up the info. Love it!!
It’s from a video so not great quality, but this was my horses 4th horse show last summer at 6 doing baby jumpers. They were 3 foot.
He is easily over a foot higher and jumped the whole course clean like that. He has the scope, just needs to learn he doesn’t need to jump that high over everything. He is fun to ride, I really wish I had more time and money to really campaign him!!! He is going to get me started in the jumper ring soon. I have always done hunters, so it will be interesting. But. I am excited.
that’s not Baloubet du Rouet
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8049506]
Baloubet Du Rouet
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/baloudurouet2.jpg[/QUOTE]
that’s his son Balou du Rouet, who is ranked #24 WBFSH jumping sires. Balou is bay with 4 matching whites, Baloubet du Rouet is chestnut with a right fore and a left hind sock.
IMHO that’s because his stifle is low enough and his SI is forward enough. In part that means he’s got a longer “hinge” from the SI to the point of the butt.
You can’t single out a given body part and declare that good, or bad, for X function, since it’s greatly affected by body parts immediately adjacent to it 
[QUOTE=JB;8049550]
IMHO that’s because his stifle is low enough and his SI is forward enough. In part that means he’s got a longer “hinge” from the SI to the point of the butt.
You can’t single out a given body part and declare that good, or bad, for X function, since it’s greatly affected by body parts immediately adjacent to it :)[/QUOTE]
This.
Good jumpers, even great jumpers come in all shapes and sizes. Their particular technique is very much related to their individual conformation.
The possibility that body parts might come not just from sire or dam but any number of ancestors is one reason that stallions and mares who reliably produce certain desirable types are highly valued by breeders.
Yet there are some breeders who have the almost magical ability to make matches that produce good performing horses from parents that look questionable or by reaching outside the box to get they are looking for.
Somewhere I saw Saddlebreds mentioned…I can’t recall her name, but there was an actual American Saddlebred that did some big Grand Prixs on LI in the late 70’s, including annual appearances in the Hampton Classic Grand Prix in the era of Idle Dice and Dutch Crown. I’m not astonished to hear that there might be characteristics from that breed which, when combined with other pieces, could produce something worthwhile.
And…I whenever I look at Galoubet’s pedigree…I frequently see the word “Trotter” for his dam, and no further info.
Baloubet du Rouet is listed on Horsetelex as chestnut…
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/2859
Jet Run, Gem Twist, Touch Of Class…just a few top TBs that were remarkable jumpers…full TBs…sire and dam…
Not sure how we’ve fallen back into the TB discussion again, but…
[QUOTE=runwayz;8049685]
Jet Run, Gem Twist, Touch Of Class…just a few top TBs that were remarkable jumpers…full TBs…sire and dam…[/QUOTE]
Different era, different horses, different courses.
The combined evolution of the racehorse over the decades and the sport of show jumping over the same time period have made the TB breed less desirable for a top GP jumper.
Interesting discussion.
Thank you for the article from the World Cup. I saw those horses there and remember thinking what a gawdawful mover that Michael Whitaker mare was, and she did super well. And Shutterfly had no chest at all and looked like nothing. I ran into Christian Ludwig on a shuttle there and was talking about his ideas on conformation and how Shutterfly was a perfect modern type. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t pick that horse for anything spectacular based on his looks, but boy he was amazing under saddle.
From what I see of jumpers, what you see in conformation and movement can have nothing to do with the ability to jump. I remember watching a Quidam horse jump in Atlanta (chestnut with a question mark blaze) that moved like a bad rental horse, but that guy could jump the moon.
I would say it’s easier to correlate conformation to ability in dressage, but even that doesn’t always work. Bonfire was not a very nice looking horse when he wasn’t moving.
[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8049725]
Not sure how we’ve fallen back into the TB discussion again, but…
Different era, different horses, different courses.
The combined evolution of the racehorse over the decades and the sport of show jumping over the same time period have made the TB breed less desirable for a top GP jumper.[/QUOTE]
More like different riders and trainers. And different attitudes. Overbreeding together with animal rights and welfare have meant that TB’s are seen mainly as “rescues,” and there are many more mediocre examples than there used to be, with the good ones ending up in the hands of mainly small budget owners. These don’t find their way to a career path that would take them to the big rings even if they have the ability, but many still have solid careers as eventers.; we had one on our WEG team last year (Donner). Great TB’s of the past didn’t just grow on trees then, you still had quite a bit of bush beating to do–there are plenty of nice TB athletes out there, but few owners and trainers with the ability to spot and develop them are looking.
