I have been told/seen western riders say that they use a curb strap with a snaffle so that it cannot be pulled through the mouth. In a hell of a long time riding english I can honestly say that the only time I have seen a snaffle pulled through the mouth was a stubborn thick necked pony being rode by an equally stubborn child (think thewall cartoon).
So is there really a plague of western horses with bits pulled through or is it more of one of those it happened a couple of times and just became tradition? Is it a regional or discipline thing? If its happening lots why - certain type of rein aid? certain movement?
just curious and a âwhyâ nerd, as certainly there is no harm in having one on other than another piece of kit to clean, and if I do take some youngsters to the local schooling show for mileage I want to have appropriate presentation.
I asked elsewhere and was told I was an ignorant english rider and was never given any sort of answer so hoping for some COTH explantion.
In my opinion, itâs a humorous legend, I havenât ever seen it happen and Iâve ridden more than my fair share of green or unruly horses in snaffles. Now, I will note that western trainers are fond of hanging a snaffle a little lower in the mouth, theory being they want them to âpick up the bit,â rather than the snugger fit weâre accustomed to in English training. So I could see the odds increasing if the bit is hanging lower and thus there is a bit more wiggle room for the ring of the snaffle. But still, I just personally canât fathom a scenario where I would haul âthatâ hard sideways on even the worst bolter. The other thing I observe is that the curb straps thus applied are so loose that they are not going to limit such a thing from happening, if you can have such a thing happen.
So, sure, when I go to a clinic in my western gear, and am sitting on my horse who is in a snaffle with split reins and no slobber straps and no curb strap, and I hear the clinicianâs lecture on the curb strap, I just smile and go on about my business.
The irony for me is, with all of the popular ânew and improvedâ methods of starting a horse, the theories espoused are that under more enlightened methods, itâs all a piece of cake, the horse will never buck or otherwise misbehave if youâre doing it right. So theoretically, assuming Iâve been unenlightened for 50 years and never seen such a thing, it should be even less likely with new tools in the toolbox.
Just my contrarian opinion, mind you.
Itâs because most western horses ridden in a snaffle DONâT use a cavasson. If you are going to show a junior western pleasure horse in a snaffle, you canât use a cavasson, as an example.
Without a cavasson, itâs VERY easy to pull the snaffle through the mouth on a naughty horse because they can open their mouth. While the curb strap wonât stop the snaffle from being pulled through the mouth 100%, itâs still pretty effective in stopping the problem.
Itâs been ages, but I saw curb straps used on race horses at the track when I worked the backside as a kid. Iâm assuming, because I never saw the use of cavassons, the use of the curb strap was for the same reason.
I have used them on young horses that play with the bit because I had two who would flip the snaffle over with their tongues. A loose strap - Iâve always thought of it as a âlip strapâ - under their chin will prevent bit flipping. In fairness, this happens more with a mullen mouth than a jointed bit.
When I lived in Texas and rode Western, most if not all Western riders used a neck rein rather than a direct rein as English riders do. Not sure how you pull a bit through when youâre neck reining.
[QUOTE=GotMyPony;7964221]
When I lived in Texas and rode Western, most if not all Western riders used a neck rein rather than a direct rein as English riders do. Not sure how you pull a bit through when youâre neck reining.[/QUOTE]
When starting a horse you direct rein. When showing in a snaffle you also direct rein.
It is a fairly common practice for western horses to be taught to give by either being tied around or just with the rider holding the one rein to teach the horse to give right around. I think this is the type of scenario that would cause the bit to possibly get pulled through.
[QUOTE=CHT;7964225]
When showing in a snaffle you also neck rein.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. Western riders do not show in a snaffle and neck rein. You direct rein with your reins in a bridge.
thanks guys for actual answers - very helpful
[QUOTE=Go Fish;7964051]
Itâs because most western horses ridden in a snaffle DONâT use a cavasson. If you are going to show a junior western pleasure horse in a snaffle, you canât use a cavasson, as an example.
Without a cavasson, itâs VERY easy to pull the snaffle through the mouth on a naughty horse because they can open their mouth. While the curb strap wonât stop the snaffle from being pulled through the mouth 100%, itâs still pretty effective in stopping the problem.
Itâs been ages, but I saw curb straps used on race horses at the track when I worked the backside as a kid. Iâm assuming, because I never saw the use of cavassons, the use of the curb strap was for the same reason.[/QUOTE]
Exactly!
As we once more go down the path of trying to equate English with western, and without regard to equipment. English bridles have cavassons, that serve the same purpose as that curb strap on a snaffle, with a western headstall, and no cavasson
In other words, the cavasson makes it impossible to even accidently pull that bit through the mouth-but not so on a western head stall
Is it very likely-nope, but since that curb strap attached correctly,has zero action, why not have it there âjust in caseâ
A green horse, having his head checked around, with the rein,on the ground, can have that bit travel though his mouth more than is desired, if he fights it
[QUOTE=CHT;7964225]
When starting a horse you direct rein. When showing in a snaffle you also neck rein.
It is a fairly common practice for western horses to be taught to give by either being tied around or just with the rider holding the one rein to teach the horse to give right around. I think this is the type of scenario that would cause the bit to possibly get pulled through.[/QUOTE]
Wrong!
When showing with a snaffle, you use two hands and a bridge
While training with a snaffle, you work towards eventual neck reining, by backing up the direct rein with the indirect rein, until the horse learns to respond to the indirect rein alone-you then move him to a curb to neck rein.
A snaffle is designed for direct reining
[QUOTE=GotMyPony;7964221]
When I lived in Texas and rode Western, most if not all Western riders used a neck rein rather than a direct rein as English riders do. Not sure how you pull a bit through when youâre neck reining.[/QUOTE]
All western horses, whether in Texas or elsewhere, are first started in a non leverage devise, and a direct rein. With training, a western horse learns to work off of the indirect rein alone (neck reining ), but no trainer worth his salt, skips the snaffle and direct reining, in the education of that horse.
I show western, but ride all of my young horses at least for a year in a snaffle
They âgraduateâ to neck reining
Ever watch a snaffle bit/ bosal jr horse working cowhorse futurity???Even in Texas, they are reined with two hands at that stage of their life and training!
Bottom line, show rules dictate that if you have a curb strap on your snaffle bridle, it must be attached between the bit and the reins, so even accidental minimal curb action is not possible. It does nothing, except prevent that bit from being pulled through the mouth, in an unusal/ un predicted situation-such as a green horse bucking, and you needing to take his head away quickly, while dis engaging the hips
No, we donât go around riding with strong hands, and no legs, and thus the use of that curb strap because we are yarding on mouths-it is there just in case, as western horses are started in snaffles, and we donât force mouths shut with cavassons, nor have that cavasson there to provide the same function
KIloBright - I am not sure how I manged to offend you so or perhaps I am taking your post the wrong way and if so I apologise in advance but I am not accusing you of being an evil/incompetant/yahoo/inferior or whatever you think I am implying about western riders, it was merely a question of why it was used differently.
And personally I do not adjust my canveson or flash so tight that it is forcing the mouth shut - they can still open their mouths well enough to snatch grass afterall.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7964691]
Wrong!
When showing with a snaffle, you use two hands and a bridge
While training with a snaffle, you work towards eventual neck reining, by backing up the direct rein with the indirect rein, until the horse learns to respond to the indirect rein alone-you then move him to a curb to neck rein
.
A snaffle is designed for direct reining[/QUOTE]
Lol, it was a typo. I meant that in a snaffle you also direct rein. Corrected
Both of my horses have an English bridle, with cavesson, and a western bridle with no cavesson. No difference in the action of the snaffle or ability to get a ring into the horseâs mouth with or without cavesson. Maybe yâall are mistakenly thinking that the cavesson is there to keep the horseâs mouth shut. That is not so. You cannot tighten a cavesson enough to keep the mouth shut if you are doing things right. Flash or dropped noseband or figure eight, sure.
Show rules aside, all of mine have always neck reined just fine in a snaffle. And a bosal.
I have never seen any sense in those straps on a snaffle, they seemed to be more of an annoying flapping thing banging the horse down there.
I have to say, I have never used one, so canât say how they would work.
That strap hanging there was to be about like when I was taught how to tie a horseâs head back to teach it to flex, which also never made any sense, so I never did that either.
I was right not to like that, as over the years I have seen horses severely injured because of that practice.
You can achieve any flexing you want with the reins in your hand, donât need to tie them back, where you may end up with a stiff, uncomfortable horse.
When something doesnât make sense, donât use/do it.
On the other hand, in our program to become a riding instructor, we trained many horses a day and it was mandatory that you had a running martingale with proper rein stops on every horse and a whip on hand.
That running martingale, properly adjusted, was not doing anything at all 99.99999 of the time, but was there like a seat belt, for that one rare time a horse may have a silly moment bad enough to throw itâs head around regardless of your skills with the reins and that running martingale made it possible to have that bit more control how far that head may swing.
The only time I saw a running martingale be of use is when a rider was needing to be a bit less than polite with the reins on a horse getting stronger and stronger thru a tough jumperâs course where jumps came up very fast and the horse rightfully objected to that overly strong rein ad.
A martingale there could be the difference with making the distance after all, or in the fight get the horse wrong to the next jump.
On the other hand, we would never use any kind of standing martingale.
We were warned against them, too restricting to a horse that may trip and not be able to use itâs neck for balance.
In (continental) Europe, in fact, those were banned in any classes, on the flat or over jumps.
I was shocked to see standing martingales be standard for hunters in the US, all using them in the shows and no one wreck happened because of them.
I know many in western disciplines that would never use a running martingale at all, but use a standing one, or âtie downâ.
My point with this, for some, there is a good reason to do what they do, just as others may not see any sense in it AND THAT IS OK, as long as you have given careful thought at what you choose to do.
[QUOTE=sherian;7963781]
I have been told/seen western riders say that they use a curb strap with a snaffle so that it cannot be pulled through the mouth. In a hell of a long time riding english I can honestly say that the only time I have seen a snaffle pulled through the mouth was a stubborn thick necked pony being rode by an equally stubborn child (think thewall cartoon).
So is there really a plague of western horses with bits pulled through or is it more of one of those it happened a couple of times and just became tradition? Is it a regional or discipline thing? If its happening lots why - certain type of rein aid? certain movement?
just curious and a âwhyâ nerd, as certainly there is no harm in having one on other than another piece of kit to clean, and if I do take some youngsters to the local schooling show for mileage I want to have appropriate presentation.
I asked elsewhere and was told I was an ignorant english rider and was never given any sort of answer so hoping for some COTH explantion.[/QUOTE]
Good Lord, why do you insist on painting all western riders with the same paintbrush??? Maybe your last sentence is not so far off.
The only thing that prevents the bit from being pulled through the mouth is the tightness of the cheekpieces, whether English or Western. And imho, something is going wrong with either discipline if the bit is being pulled through the horseâs mouth.
And I learned to drop the bit down low in a horseâs mouth WHILE GALLOPING AT THE RACE TRACK. You canât get much more English, and it works great with some horses that want to set their jaws and really lean on the bit while galloping, or with a green or sensitive horse that is hesitant to pick up the bit and drop their heads and reach for it. My show hunter went in hack classes with a rubber snaffle dropped 2-3 holes down.
Most horsemen will agree that all horses are different, and sometimes you have to rephrase your question to them several different ways until they understand what you are asking. Dropping the bit down in the mouth is just one of many ways to get a desired response from a horse, and some horses respond and some donât.
not sure how I am painting all the western riders? the plague of western horses with bits pulled through was meant as a facetious comment, perhaps i should have used a emoticon?. I was honestly curious as to why at least to the western people I have come across, it was considered correct to use the strap when it isnât in english land considering it is the same bit structurally. I asked here for a different viewpoint (the people who i asked before were more regional) Thank you to those who put in their thoughts on why.
Flash44 interesting input on dropping the bit lower.
Bluey - you want a scary thought, I actually know people who fox hunt in a standing martingale in crap footing, first flight!
[QUOTE=sherian;7965189]
not sure how I am painting all the western riders? the plague of western horses with bits pulled through was meant as a facetious comment, perhaps i should have used a emoticon?. I was honestly curious as to why at least to the western people I have come across, it was considered correct to use the strap when it isnât in english land considering it is the same bit structurally. I asked here for a different viewpoint (the people who i asked before were more regional) Thank you to those who put in their thoughts on why.
Flash44 interesting input on dropping the bit lower.
Bluey - you want a scary thought, I actually know people who fox hunt in a standing martingale in crap footing, first flight![/QUOTE]
Another scary thought, in some playdays, the smaller the kid, the tighter the tie-down, âso the kid can have more controlâ.
Never mind that those horses tend to be very old and prone to stumble when hurried and, being stiff, even less apt to recover, but splatter out there, kid right along.
Have seen some scary wrecks from that too.
yikes!
