snaffle with a curb strap

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=sherian;7965217]
yikes![/QUOTE]

Right, can’t tell those parents enough to buy the safest, best trained horse and teach the kid how to ride properly is better than hope it makes it around and back on some poorly trained, unsuitable horse tied down and with big hardware on it’s head so a little kid without skills or strength can try to manhandle it around.

That is what those push type horses and good instruction is for, so the kid is not overmounted and the horse overfaced, that is how some of the wrecks happen.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7964709]
Bottom line, show rules dictate that if you have a curb strap on your snaffle bridle, it must be attached between the bit and the reins, so even accidental minimal curb action is not possible.[/QUOTE]

But unless the strap is below the rein, minimal curb action IS possible. AQHA and USEF handbook states: Optional leather strap attached below the reins on a snaffle bit is acceptable.

[Chuckles]

Current NSBA rules state that the curb is optional. Riders can ride with one hand (even in a hack or snaffle) but the reins must be bridged when riding with a snaffle.
I know that some trainers like to use the curb to so that the snaffle moves less independently because they will be moving the horse to a bit that is less independent on each side.
At least this is one theory.

[sherian]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7965250]
Right, can’t tell those parents enough to buy the safest, best trained horse and teach the kid how to ride properly is better than hope it makes it around and back on some poorly trained, unsuitable horse tied down and with big hardware on it’s head so a little kid without skills or strength can try to manhandle it around.

That is what those push type horses and good instruction is for, so the kid is not overmounted and the horse overfaced, that is how some of the wrecks happen.[/QUOTE]

they do the same thing with the hunter/ jumpers - they buy the fanciest youngster and put a bigger bit on or lunge it to death because they can’t afford fancy, quiet and young, when little susie should be riding unfancy older schoolmaster

[Beverley]

Sherian, don’t want to lead your thread astray, but there is in my experience a lot of mythology about the standing martingale as well. I’ve been hunting since 1971 and have used a standing now and then, and here I still am. Really, properly adjusted, it is not a safety issue. I can say when I started hunting it was pretty much standard equipment for the vast majority out there. I do think such things, just like hunt attire, go in cycles, just based on random looks of older hunting photos in the first half of the 20th century. Actually I’ve just found a photo where I am pair racing in one:

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickODHpairrace.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

The particular horse, a quarter horse formerly shown in western pleasure, is pretty much going flat out and I think it’s clear the martingale is not impeding his movement at all.

[sherian]

awsome pic Beverley
I have no issues with threads going astray - sometimes the best conversations come up that way.

[Flash44]

I am still wondering why anyone, english or western, is pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. If the bit is getting pulled through the horse’s mouth, the cheekpieces are too loose.

If a rider is choosing to drop the bit down in the horse’s mouth to accomplish a training issue, the rider needs to make sure the horse is at a point in it’s training that the rider doesn’t need to pull so hard on one rein that it pulls the bit through the horse’s mouth.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7965415]
Sherian, don’t want to lead your thread astray, but there is in my experience a lot of mythology about the standing martingale as well. I’ve been hunting since 1971 and have used a standing now and then, and here I still am. Really, properly adjusted, it is not a safety issue. I can say when I started hunting it was pretty much standard equipment for the vast majority out there. I do think such things, just like hunt attire, go in cycles, just based on random looks of older hunting photos in the first half of the 20th century. Actually I’ve just found a photo where I am pair racing in one:

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickODHpairrace.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

The particular horse, a quarter horse formerly shown in western pleasure, is pretty much going flat out and I think it’s clear the martingale is not impeding his movement at all.[/QUOTE]

It is mere physics, if a horse were to stumble in front and stick it’s neck out to rebalance, he may just do it.
If trying to do so it is impeded by a standing martingale or a rider’s hands holding tight on the reins, that horse may just keep on tumbling and crash.

I have seen both myself, but the physics of the situation will also show that easily.

Now, since horses don’t stumble that often, it is a long shot safety issue.
Given a choice, I like to weigh if I really need something, against the chances it may not be that helpful.

[gaitedincali]

I’ve pulled a snaffle through a horse’s mouth before.

It is not something that should ever come up in normal riding or training. Each time I was doubling a completely freaked out horse after we’d stumbled into a sudden OH SH!T situation on the trail that was more than the horse could handle at that moment, and where we had very little safe space to deal with the problem. The entire headstall spins on the horse’s head when it happens, tightness of cheek pieces is a non-issue.

99% of the time training holds and I can diffuse a situation in manner the peanut gallery would find acceptable. The other 1% you’re left wondering who up there hates you and trying to just survive a situation so you can limp home and work on it later, and that doesn’t always lead to the prettiest horsemanship. Like having a hang glider crash to the ground right in front of your horse, or sitting on a corner waiting for the light to change when a pretty serious car accident happens not even 20’ in front of your green 3yo.

[sherian]

gaitedincali a friend of mine had a bright orange hang glider land right next to them when they were unloading 2 very green horses to go trail riding - you just can’t prep for random hang gliders

[KIloBright]

A curb strap on a snaffle, does nothing, zip, Zero, except prevent that accidental pull through the mouth.
That scenerio only has chance of occurring in an extreme situation, on a very green horse, or checking the head around, when the horse is first taught to give to that bit laterally, on the ground,rein checked back to the saddle
Sure, you can take it off of a snaffle bit horse, once that horse is got a good start on him, and you can certainly show or ride without that curb strap being on that snaffle bridle, as it is not a integral part for the function of that snaffle bit, as it is for a curb bit
For showing, look alone , has people riding without it on a show bridle, although most jr horses are shown in a bosal as that ‘look’ is very popular, and makes that young horse appear very broke, plus you are sure to have a quiet mouth
On my working bridles, since I always rode young horses at various stages of training, it was just simple to leave that curb strap in place, instead of taking it on and off, as on a snaffle bridle, in spite of being called a curb strap it has no curb action. It is just a convenient use of a curb strap-‘off label’ for want of a better term. It is loose, and no way ever comes close to exerting any curb pressure

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7964938]
I have never seen any sense in those straps on a snaffle, they seemed to be more of an annoying flapping thing banging the horse down there.

I have to say, I have never used one, so can’t say how they would work.

That strap hanging there was to be about like when I was taught how to tie a horse’s head back to teach it to flex, which also never made any sense, so I never did that either.
I was right not to like that, as over the years I have seen horses severely injured because of that practice.
You can achieve any flexing you want with the reins in your hand, don’t need to tie them back, where you may end up with a stiff, uncomfortable horse.

When something doesn’t make sense, don’t use/do it.

On the other hand, in our program to become a riding instructor, we trained many horses a day and it was mandatory that you had a running martingale with proper rein stops on every horse and a whip on hand.

That running martingale, properly adjusted, was not doing anything at all 99.99999 of the time, but was there like a seat belt, for that one rare time a horse may have a silly moment bad enough to throw it’s head around regardless of your skills with the reins and that running martingale made it possible to have that bit more control how far that head may swing.

The only time I saw a running martingale be of use is when a rider was needing to be a bit less than polite with the reins on a horse getting stronger and stronger thru a tough jumper’s course where jumps came up very fast and the horse rightfully objected to that overly strong rein ad.
A martingale there could be the difference with making the distance after all, or in the fight get the horse wrong to the next jump.

On the other hand, we would never use any kind of standing martingale.
We were warned against them, too restricting to a horse that may trip and not be able to use it’s neck for balance.
In (continental) Europe, in fact, those were banned in any classes, on the flat or over jumps.
I was shocked to see standing martingales be standard for hunters in the US, all using them in the shows and no one wreck happened because of them.

I know many in western disciplines that would never use a running martingale at all, but use a standing one, or “tie down”.

My point with this, for some, there is a good reason to do what they do, just as others may not see any sense in it AND THAT IS OK, as long as you have given careful thought at what you choose to do.[/QUOTE]
Bluey, as in all things, there is a right and wrong way to do things,
Checking a horse"s head around, briefly, not too a severe degree, making sure that you stay they and encourage that horse to follow his nose, has been done, is done, by many great western trainers, and without that horse being injured.
As Al Dunning said once, when explaining his training method, ‘there are many ways to train a horse, this is just my way, that has worked well for me’
Sure you can neck rein with a snaffle or a bosal, on a horse that has some of the elements of the foundation on him, as how else do you move him on to a curb? It is by the progressive training with a snaffle, to the point where that horse is mainly working off of the indirect rein-at which point he is ready to 'graduate to a curb
The whole idea, of going correctly to a curb, is for increased finesse. On a well trained horse, that curb on a curb bridle, allows signal, which depends on various bit and shank designs (you can google it , as I;m not about to go into it
Bottom line, that signal, with the rein pick up, will allow the horse to respond to that curb strap up take, before bit pressure ever comes into play
That signal is not possible in a non leverage bit)
Bluey, running martingales, standing martingales and tie downs are not legal in most western judged events. They are only seen in games and roping, and that is why one trains with feel, instead of using those artificial devises
Only an idiot would trail ride and cross rives with a tie down I know of horses that have drown that way.
If a western horse, unless he is roping or running barrels, needs a tie down or martingale, he has huge holes in training
I took my three year old reining mare to a working cowhorse clinic, given by Les Timmons, a very successful reining, working cowhorse and cutting trainer
I had a snaffle and a running martingale on her. he asked as to why I had that martingale on her, to take it off and learn true feel.
I have not used one since to train horses
Since tie downs, running martingales, cavassons, standing martingales are all not legal in most western performance events, you train without them, as that is the way you have to show
Check your western rule books Bluey, and you will see that tie downs are use din games, where almost anything goes, including chain bits , gag bits ct, so hardly an example of equipment use in western events
Again, that curb strap on a snaffle does nothing, more than being there , just in case. If the look offends you, ride without it-no problem and no difference in the action of that bit

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7965549]
I am still wondering why anyone, english or western, is pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. If the bit is getting pulled through the horse’s mouth, the cheekpieces are too loose.

If a rider is choosing to drop the bit down in the horse’s mouth to accomplish a training issue, the rider needs to make sure the horse is at a point in it’s training that the rider doesn’t need to pull so hard on one rein that it pulls the bit through the horse’s mouth.[/QUOTE]
Again, have you started many colts, maybe getting on them, with very little ground work?. Colts might suddenly buck, try to bolt, sot hat you have to take hold of them, in that instance, and if the horse is not giving to that bit, yes, it is possible in that instance to pull that bit , to the point that the opposite ring can enter the mouth. Some people use full cheek snaffles instead of that curb strap, for that same ‘safety check’, just in case.
Most western trainers never have that snaffle adjusted so that there are wrinkles in the corner of the mouth- I certainly never do. We work towards a horse learning to carry that bit, with a quiet and closed mouth.
A frothy chewing mouth is a negative trait, western
Do I need a curb strap on my snaffle bridle for any horse beyond the kindergarten stage? Certainly not, but since it is doing nothing, why take it off of my working bridle, as I use it on many horses, including ones just being started
You can drive you car without airbags also. Makes no difference, until you need those air bags. Can’t explain it any better. Works for some very great horsemen,and certainly works for me
I;m not making a fashion statment, training, and have been known, on very muddy days, to ride with rubber boots, gasp!
I find it curious, that while a curb strap on a snaffle does nothing, far as any bit action, control etc, all at once we get all kinds of references to training devises that do exert some effect
yes, a running martingale, adjusted correctly, does nothing , unless the horse gets out of position, except it prevents that rider from learning true feel, correctly the horse with legs and hands, teaching the horse to stay correct, without relying on some artificial devise to check that horse, when he gets out of position
Tiedowns, standing martingales, all have an effect on that snaffle, far as increasing control, while that curb strap does nothing, so why are we even discussing them in this topic?
They have their place , in some events, but not in western judged performance events, nor are they comparable to a non functioning curb strap on a snaffle
The Op asked as to why it was used on a snaffle bridle, and that answer was given, thus why all that discussion, on a point that is established in the western industry, as to the purpose and function of that curb strap on a snaffle???

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7965257]
But unless the strap is below the rein, minimal curb action IS possible. AQHA and USEF handbook states: Optional leather strap attached below the reins on a snaffle bit is acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Below the reins allow no curb action, with rein pickup. Below the reins is below the reins-ie between the reins and the bit. That is below the reins!!! How the heck do you expect to get any curb action, when those reins are picked up, with that curb strap just loose and no shanks for a leverage action???(the reins can’t pick up that curb strap, and the bit, being non leverage certainly can’t
of course it is optional, as it has no function, being there, if one wishes, for just ‘in case’

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Chuckles;7965263]
Current NSBA rules state that the curb is optional. Riders can ride with one hand (even in a hack or snaffle) but the reins must be bridged when riding with a snaffle.
I know that some trainers like to use the curb to so that the snaffle moves less independently because they will be moving the horse to a bit that is less independent on each side.
At least this is one theory.[/QUOTE]

Of course the curb strap, not curb-as that is the bit, on a snaffle is optional, as it does nothing.
Where do you get that you can ride with one hand on a snaffle? A bridge means you cross the two reins, and then have both hands on that bridge
You don’t ride with hacks, but a bosal, and two hands are used on a bosal
Junior horses can be shown one handed in a curb, in a class that is not designated as a snaffle bit/bosal class The word 'hackamore, is synonymous with bosal,per jr horse classes, and does not mean a mechanical hackamore-only legal in games

Here is the NSBA rule, as to classes NOt designated as a snaffle bit 'bosal class

Standard western bit means curb
If you wish to show a jr horse in a snaffle or bosal, then two hands must be used

Horses may be ridden with one hand and a standard western
bit as approved by NSBA or with two hands and a snaffle
bit or bosal as described under NSBA Western equipment rules
(Rule #126). Horses 6 years of age and older MUST be shown in
a standard western curb bit as approved by AQHA

[KIloBright]

Just to make sure that there is no confusion, when it is said that the curb strap prevents that bit from being pulled through the mouth, I hope nobody took that literally, with the entire bit winding up on one side of the horse;s face!
Of course not- it means that the opposite ring might be slightly pulled into the mouth, Maybe that is why some thought it was so impossible???

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7972776]
Bluey, as in all things, there is a right and wrong way to do things,
Checking a horse"s head around, briefly, not too a severe degree, making sure that you stay they and encourage that horse to follow his nose, has been done, is done, by many great western trainers, and without that horse being injured.
As Al Dunning said once, when explaining his training method, ‘there are many ways to train a horse, this is just my way, that has worked well for me’
Sure you can neck rein with a snaffle or a bosal, on a horse that has some of the elements of the foundation on him, as how else do you move him on to a curb? It is by the progressive training with a snaffle, to the point where that horse is mainly working off of the indirect rein-at which point he is ready to 'graduate to a curb
The whole idea, of going correctly to a curb, is for increased finesse. On a well trained horse, that curb on a curb bridle, allows signal, which depends on various bit and shank designs (you can google it , as I;m not about to go into it
Bottom line, that signal, with the rein pick up, will allow the horse to respond to that curb strap up take, before bit pressure ever comes into play
That signal is not possible in a non leverage bit)
Bluey, running martingales, standing martingales and tie downs are not legal in most western judged events. They are only seen in games and roping, and that is why one trains with feel, instead of using those artificial devises
Only an idiot would trail ride and cross rives with a tie down I know of horses that have drown that way.
If a western horse, unless he is roping or running barrels, needs a tie down or martingale, he has huge holes in training
I took my three year old reining mare to a working cowhorse clinic, given by Les Timmons, a very successful reining, working cowhorse and cutting trainer
I had a snaffle and a running martingale on her. he asked as to why I had that martingale on her, to take it off and learn true feel.
I have not used one since to train horses
Since tie downs, running martingales, cavassons, standing martingales are all not legal in most western performance events, you train without them, as that is the way you have to show
Check your western rule books Bluey, and you will see that tie downs are use din games, where almost anything goes, including chain bits , gag bits ct, so hardly an example of equipment use in western events
Again, that curb strap on a snaffle does nothing, more than being there , just in case. If the look offends you, ride without it-no problem and no difference in the action of that bit[/QUOTE]

Just two points to touch there, some people halter break by tying solid and let the horse fight it out.
Some teach a horse to give and then tie it solid, when the horse won’t be pulling back.

The same with tying a horse’s head to the side and let it stand there to “soak”, many trainers even to to lunch and leave a horse so tied back in a stall or round pen.
I prefer to teach a horse to give with my hand, so it can have an immediate release.

I have seen plenty of horses injured by teaching to tie solid where they fight it until they learn to stand there, the same with a horse tied back and injured.

Not too long a reining trainer in the West tied a mare back and she fell and was seriously injured and last I heard, there was a lawsuit over that, here is the story:

http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/mark-arballo-what-lies-beneath.aspx

You may say, “he didn’t do it right”, but you know, there are perfectly fine ways to get the same result without putting any horse at risk that things didn’t work out right, if because someone did something wrong or just because tying a horse like that is a wreck waiting to happen, sooner or later.

I will only say, lets THINK about it before we do ANYTHING and do what makes the most sense, not what we have done long time and think it is fine because we think it has worked.

Tying a horse solid that doesn’t know to tie and will fight it CAN’T be good for the horse’s neck.
I know one that broke vertebra in his neck, right behind the poll from it and several others also injured.

A horse tied back to soak is left there in a position where he is not getting real release, he has to keep that neck crooked for as long as he is left there.
You can see plenty of older DVDs with trainers tying a horse back and shooing the horse around and the horse fighting and falling over, which is a time a horse tied like that can get hurt.

We had a race colt we sent to the track ahead, were going there ourselves the next week.
We got there and the colt had the whole side of the neck swollen from right ear to withers and could not move.
The story, the assistant trainer didn’t know that was an already well broke colt and did as they did there, tied the horse back and left him in the stall to soak, went to do other, 20 minutes later came to check and he was on the floor, head bent, against the wall.
Took three months for the swelling to go down and the colt to be able to move his head and neck.

Those are just examples of more that were injured.
Why do anything that may injure even ONE horse, when we have better ways to do it, just because we think nothing will happen?
I don’t care if “all western trainers do it, so it must be fine”.
No, all do it and horses will keep getting in trouble at times because of it AND there are better ways to do the same where NO injury will happen from it.

On the curb strap, look at videos of horses being ridden with one, how they just bang along down there under their chin.
Maybe some want to use them to desensitize a horse there, for some reason, but honestly, I rather my horse goes along as comfortable as he may and that means without anything that is not needed banging around on it unnecessarily, like that strap there tends to do.

At least there is no real harm there, just annoyance for most horses.
There may be the very sensitive horse that may overreact to that until it learns it can’t get away from it, or the one that get sore from it and then the rider will wonder why that horse throws it’s head around here and there.
Generally, for the many horses that are ridden with one such, they seem to take it in stride, so maybe it doesn’t matter.

I know that many do all that and get by without other than the occasional sore horse, but doing something that can cause harm, because it has not yet, when we have better ways to do so, that would help making the chances of harm less, WHY NOT?

[gypsymare]

On those sliding headstalls it is not that difficult to pull a bit through. They can spin right around. There are going to be awkward moments on green horses and while not the norm, sometimes you might need to grab one side hard. It’s there just in case to prevent a bigger freak out.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7972937]
On those sliding headstalls it is not that difficult to pull a bit through. They can spin right around. There are going to be awkward moments on green horses and while not the norm, sometimes you might need to grab one side hard. It’s there just in case to prevent a bigger freak out.[/QUOTE]

I have never seen one of those adjusted tight enough to be of any use to keep the snaffle from sliding thru if it wanted to.
Generally, they hang way down there, banging along.

I don’t say what others need/want to do, just that we need to re-examine all we do all along, even if we still decide to keep doing what we do anyway, but that is how we learn, from double checking we are already doing what we do best we see, not because everyone else does it or gives us their reasons for it.
We need our own reasons to do what we do.

Remember, around horses, it is best not to “have our minds made up and closed”.
I read what others have to say about anything, then decide to keep my own ideas at times, may change them if other does make more sense.

[Beverley]

I suppose I’ve never had the issue because when I start them, I do the appropriate groundwork to give them the appropriate knowledge base to understand direct rein on the snaffle. Sure, you never know what might happen, but honestly, when I’ve had one spin and bolt, I just ask 'em to stop, and they do, sometimes it takes a few seconds, but the training does work. In other situations, when I grab one side hard, training also works and the head comes around. So far so good, anyway!

Actually, Gaitedincali, I’d be interested in knowing in your interesting experience, whether you had a curb strap on or if not, whether you think it would have prevented the ring of the bit going into the mouth?