[QUOTE=KIloBright;7972784]
Again, have you started many colts, maybe getting on them, with very little ground work?[/QUOTE]
Again, why would anyone get on a colt without doing the requisite groundwork??? That’s not the way I roll.
Where do you get that you can ride with one hand on a snaffle? A bridge means you cross the two reins, and then have both hands on that bridge
You don’t ride with hacks, but a bosal, and two hands are used on a bosal
Junior horses can be shown one handed in a curb, in a class that is not designated as a snaffle bit/bosal class The word 'hackamore, is synonymous with bosal,per jr horse classes, and does not mean a mechanical hackamore-only legal in games
d) Snaffle or Hackamore entries may be shown with both hands on the reins or with one hand on the reins, as long as that hand is not be changed. When showing with both hands on the reins, the rider’s hands should be carried near the pommel and no further than 4" out on either side of the saddle horn. Rider’s hands must be steady and should be visible to the judge(s) at all times. Reins must be bridged with the tails of the reins on the opposite side of the neck. When showing with one hand on the reins, the hand is to be around the reins; index finger only between split reins is permitted. Closed reins (example: Mecate) may not be used with any snaffle bit. Violation of this rule is an automatic disqualification.
That’s where I got it, from the 2015 NSBA rule book. Some people around these parts will call a bosal a hackamore, not a reference to a mechanical hackamore. I left the word strap out when I was discussing the curb.
I know you don’t know me or have any insight as to my expertise. I am somewhat familiar with the NSBA/AQHA world.
[QUOTE=Beverley;7973218]
I suppose I’ve never had the issue because when I start them, I do the appropriate groundwork to give them the appropriate knowledge base to understand direct rein on the snaffle. Sure, you never know what might happen, but honestly, when I’ve had one spin and bolt, I just ask 'em to stop, and they do, sometimes it takes a few seconds, but the training does work. In other situations, when I grab one side hard, training also works and the head comes around. So far so good, anyway!
Actually, Gaitedincali, I’d be interested in knowing in your interesting experience, whether you had a curb strap on or if not, whether you think it would have prevented the ring of the bit going into the mouth?[/QUOTE]
A curb strap stops it from happening. I use one now, because of that.
I have zero issue stopping a normal spook spin’ bolt - the usual, something popped up and startled the horse. Wild pigs jumping out of the bush, unseen dogs hitting a fence, cars backfiring, that guy behind the fence you didn’t realize was there started up the weed whacker just as you drew level.
Every once in a while - and I mean, maybe 3-4 times in 20+ years and 50+ horses, on urban trails that are crazy enough most “solid bombproof” trail horses from out of the area melt down the first few times on them - sh!t happens.
Since the curb strap doesn’t bother anything, it stays on. People are free to assume it’s there because I’m some yahoo who doesn’t do groundwork or put an appropriate foundation on their horses. I know it’s there just in case that %$*&^ hang glider comes back. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=Flash44;7973872]
Again, why would anyone get on a colt without doing the requisite groundwork??? That’s not the way I roll.[/QUOTE]
Why does that curb strap bother you, when it does nothing far as bit function?
Why would a person get on, without maybe weeks of groundwork?
Well, my son started outside colts, for some funds, during the summer going to university.
People expected that colt to be ridden all at gaits within a month, have basics like side pass, some face of them and a decent stop.
The stupid ones even asked if that colt would be neck reining by then-no!
That means you have a horse, where you don’t have the luxury , like working with one of your own, taking weeks for ground work
With three days of ground work, sure, the horse had the beginnings of learning bit response, but sure was a hell of a ways off from being passed the point that you might have to take a hold of him, taking his head away
Rail riders also do a lot more ground work then reiners and working cowhorse people. Ever see reiners being lunged at shows as part of warm up, which is very very common for rail horses, even often for senior ones?
There also sure is a heck of a difference, riding with a cavasson and without one, starting colts You never see a HUS stock horse being started with a curb strap on that D ring, as that cavasson does serve the same purpose
Why does that curb strap on a snaffle bother you?
There can be no leverage curb action, without shanks, even a miniscule one, by the reins picking up that curb strap, with that curb strap being attached below the reins
And to answer your question-yes, back when I was younger and starting horses for reining and working cowhorse, I did not spend weeks bitting them up while lunging, as I do now with all around/pleasure horses. They learned to carry the bit, without reins attached, eating in their stall, maybe then ground driven once or twice,and then I got on them-that is the way it was done back then
Did not mean that in the end they were not very soft, responsive and highly trained horses, but there was a greater chance in the horse bucking at the beginning
We all learn as we go along, and that is how I was taught some 35 years ago
Still used that curb strap on a snaffle, even when I started to do more extensive groundwork, Can you tell me why you would not, since that curb strap does nothing, far as any bit control or action?
A curb strap just happens to be convenient for that function, and would it make people happier if it was named something else, since it has no curb action, used like that?
Same as thinking, I’m careful when I drive, so don’t need air bags. I don’t get the logic
If you still think somehow that having that curb strap on a snaffle is poor horsemanship, then maybe tell some of these great horsemen
Here is a video of Larry Trocha, on teaching the stop, in a snaffle, and yup, the curb strap is there,on loose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7r82sjmFIA
Just checked my reining books, with trainers like Bob Loomas and Al dunning-again that curb strap is there, even when they use a running martingale at times
Ditto, for my western pleasure book and Doug Carpenter
So, if you wish to continue to equate using that non functioning curb strap on a snaffle, with poor horsemanship and training, rather for the reason given, maybe re-consider your thinking
Here is Stacy Westfall, doing ground work-and yes, that curb strap is there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9YfzcwhqQs
Now, are you going to try and tell me, that someone like Stacy, able to run a tackless reining demo, is less of a trainer, using that curb strap on asnaffle?
[QUOTE=Flash44;7965549]
I am still wondering why anyone, english or western, is pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. If the bit is getting pulled through the horse’s mouth, the cheekpieces are too loose.
If a rider is choosing to drop the bit down in the horse’s mouth to accomplish a training issue, the rider needs to make sure the horse is at a point in it’s training that the rider doesn’t need to pull so hard on one rein that it pulls the bit through the horse’s mouth.[/QUOTE]
Agree with this. Unfortunately I see poorly adjusted bridles more often than I see properly adjusted ones.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7974801]
If you still think somehow that having that curb strap on a snaffle is poor horsemanship, then maybe tell some of these great horsemen
Here is a video of Larry Trocha, on teaching the stop, in a snaffle, and yup, the curb strap is there,on loose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7r82sjmFIA
Just checked my reining books, with trainers like Bob Loomas and Al dunning-again that curb strap is there, even when they use a running martingale at times
Ditto, for my western pleasure book and Doug Carpenter
So, if you wish to continue to equate using that non functioning curb strap on a snaffle, with poor horsemanship and training, rather for the reason given, maybe re-consider your thinking
Here is Stacy Westfall, doing ground work-and yes, that curb strap is there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9YfzcwhqQs
Now, are you going to try and tell me, that someone like Stacy, able to run a tackless reining demo, is less of a trainer, using that curb strap on asnaffle?[/QUOTE]
Well, that is just what we have been trying to point to, don’t do something because someone else does it, no matter who, unless it makes sense to you when you think about it.
If that does make sense to you, why not, just don’t say “others do it too” as a reason.
For those that doesn’t make much sense, well, you won’t convince them just because anyone else does it that it then makes universal sense.
People have to agree to disagree in such situations, when it comes to opinions, because everyone has one and, once stated and explained, there is nothing else to say.
I’ve never ever seen it happen. I hate curb straps on snaffles. They’re a pain. English riders don’t think about it as much because the noseband should keep the horse from opening his mouth enough to fit the whole bit in.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7974750]
Why does that curb strap bother you, when it does nothing far as bit function?[/QUOTE]
Why would you think a curb strap bothers me? What bothers me is people pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. You tend to make an awful lot of assumptions about people and then go on to write preachy, long winded virtually impossible to follow posts about them as if they are idiots. I don’t think anyone has said that using a curb strap is poor horsemanship. Read for content, not to formulate an argument.
[QUOTE=gaitedincali;7974034]
Since the curb strap doesn’t bother anything, it stays on. People are free to assume it’s there because I’m some yahoo who doesn’t do groundwork or put an appropriate foundation on their horses. I know it’s there just in case that %$*&^ hang glider comes back. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Whoa there Gaitedincali, my post was a two paragraph response. Only the second was a question for you, the first responded to another poster who referenced getting on young horses without a lot of groundwork. My question was simply meant to inform ME, not a reflection on you. I have genuinely not, in 50 years that include my fair share of train wrecks, managed to be on a horse that got the ring of the bit in its mouth. And genuinely have trouble visualizing it, or seeing how the loose curb strap would prevent it, but that doesn’t mean I doubt your particular experience! As it happens there are lots of hang gliders where I ride near the barn, so far so good with them up overhead, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to holler at one of them to come and land by me and see what happens!
Because I don’t plan on ever affixing a curb strap to a snaffle does not mean I fault anyone who does. There are as many ways to ride and train horses as there are horses, and what works for you or me or anyone else is what works.
[QUOTE=Angelico;7974844]
Agree with this. Unfortunately I see poorly adjusted bridles more often than I see properly adjusted ones.[/QUOTE]
You remind me of a rental ride I took with my son and his girlfriend a few years ago. My horse’s curb bit was hanging a good inch a a half below the corners of his mouth. I adjusted it. The ‘wrangler,’ a young man who was obviously a non-horsey summer hire and just doing what he was told, came along and lowered it again. I adjusted it again before I got on. It was easy to see on the trail ride why pretty much every horse flipped its head the way they do on an improper neck rain, with the curb banging the teeth. They were all saints nevertheless.
[QUOTE=Flash44;7974890]
Why would you think a curb strap bothers me? What bothers me is people pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. You tend to make an awful lot of assumptions about people and then go on to write preachy, long winded virtually impossible to follow posts about them as if they are idiots. I don’t think anyone has said that using a curb strap is poor horsemanship. Read for content, not to formulate an argument.[/QUOTE]
Well, you also make the assumption, that IF someone uses a curb strap on the snaffle, they then are prone to pulling bits through a horse’s mouth, which is not correct either. The subliminal message here seems to be, when given the reason that the curb strap is used on a snaffle, you then are the type of person who rides in such a manner that the event is bound to happen-that also is an inccorect assumption
The original question asked, as to why it was used.
Answer was given. Explanation given, as to why it had no bit action
Then all, at once, there seemed to be the idea that if you were ever it that possible scerio, somehow you lacked horsemanship, didn’t know how to adjust equipment correctly, etc. That is how the whole dam thing got ;preachy’, as the correct answer became just another way to once again bash western trainers that used it
If you don’t want to use it, great.I have never , put someone down that rode without that curb strap on the snaffle, although, I admit I can’t really remember seen that done with a western headstall and no cavasson on a colt
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7974923]
Well, you also make the assumption, that IF someone uses a curb strap on the snaffle, they then are prone to pulling bits through a horse’s mouth, which is not correct either. The subliminal message here seems to be, when given the reason that the curb strap is used on a snaffle, you then are the type of person who rides in such a manner that the event is bound to happen-that also is an inccorect assumption
The original question asked, as to why it was used.
Answer was given. Explanation given, as to why it had no bit action
Then all, at once, there seemed to be the idea that if you were ever it that possible scerio, somehow you lacked horsemanship, didn’t know how to adjust equipment correctly, etc. That is how the whole dam thing got ;preachy’, as the correct answer became just another way to once again bash western trainers that used it
If you don’t want to use it, great.I have never , put someone down that rode without that curb strap on the snaffle, although, I admit I can’t really remember seen that done with a western headstall and no cavasson on a colt[/QUOTE]
I am sorry, I think that was not so at all, is taken out of context, I think.
I will say, every time I was where I could question the one using such a strap, I saw later where they had thought about it and taken it off, were not using one any more.
If some think about it and decide to keep it, at least they will have given it a little more thought after we questioned it here, that’s all.
If not, their horse, their opinion and if well thought out, why not?
There is nothing subliminal here, I think it is plain what everyone’s opinion is.
[QUOTE=Beverley;7974905]
You remind me of a rental ride I took with my son and his girlfriend a few years ago. My horse’s curb bit was hanging a good inch a a half below the corners of his mouth. I adjusted it. The ‘wrangler,’ a young man who was obviously a non-horsey summer hire and just doing what he was told, came along and lowered it again. I adjusted it again before I got on. It was easy to see on the trail ride why pretty much every horse flipped its head the way they do on an improper neck rain, with the curb banging the teeth. They were all saints nevertheless.[/QUOTE]
Well, I agree with you on this point-of seeing many horses with incorrectly adjusted headstalls, but that has nothing to do with this post here
There seems to be the English minds etc, and even some western, of having three wrinkles at the corner of the horse’s mouth, using a snaffle
Curbs should just be so the mouth piece is also at the corner of the mouth, although even a notch looser is fine, on a well broke horse, as he will pick up that bit and carry it where it is comfortable
I have seen the curb strap attached in the wrong position on those curb bits that allow that possibility, due to design
Flash
Bottom line, that is not why that curb strap is used on a snaffle,(poor headstall adjustment, or incompetence on the rider’s part and I pointed out that many good trainers, better then anyone here, myself included, certainly are competent enough to adjust a headstall correctly
We are not talking about some dude wrangler, ect, but horsemen that certainly know how to use equipment correctly, and ride with that curb strap on the snaffle
The question was asked, the answer was given. The that was not enough, just say, 'okay;, but rather a bash on anyone who chose to use a curb strap that way. So, tell me, who got ‘preachy’ Many of these trainers train thousands of colts over the years, producing very good horses. They certainly aren’t using that strap, , because of rough hands, less knowledge then you, prone to pulling a bit through the mouth of a horse.
I kind consider myself to have very good hands, thus, yes, the implication that only a poor rider could ever possibly pull that bit further in a horse’s mouth than desired, was offensive
Bluey, maybe you should ride with Stacey, Bob Loomas and suggest they should just take that curb strap off.
Sure, ride without it-I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem when the reason was given, of accidentally pulling that bit through the mouth, and the feedback suggested that if you really ever were int hat position, then you somehow weren’t as good a trainer as anyone choosing not to ride with that curb strap
You chose to ride with a running martingale, while I see no reason to use one in a good training program, but I’m not about to endlessly question, dispute , nor even, if I saw you, tell you to take it off ( some of the trainers I worked with, might have)
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7974945]
- Well, I agree with you on this point-of seeing many horses with incorrectly adjusted headstalls, but that has nothing to do with this post here
2.So, tell me, who got ‘preachy’[/QUOTE]
-
My post was a sidebar observation (do you know what sidebar means?), made to a specific post by another poster. I’m mystified as to why you thought you needed to weigh in.
-
Looking at observations made by other posters, not me.
Friendly reminder, this thread is not about ‘you,’ and folks can take or leave what you have to say.
Flash 44, your advice about reading for content is universally sound!
Well, side posts of mine ave also been taken the wrong way, so lets just call it even, Sorry, I should have responded to the initial suggestion/implication that curb straps were used on snaffles because people did not know how to adjust headstalls correctly-and you are right, you were only expounding on the headstall adjustment itself
No, the post isn’t just about me, but also seems to suggest that not just I , but anyone using that curb strap on a snaffle, has , my God, poor hands training techniques, as it is known as an absolute that such a situation would never occur by anyone here that does not chose to ride with that curb strap
Thus, i will give a new reason as to why many chose to ride with that curb strap on a snaffle, that should please everyone
Many of us western trainers are so used to using curb straps, as our horses eventually are shown in a curb bit, that we just automatically slap that curb strap on any headstall,without rhyme or reason Better?
Oh no, not only do I ride w/a loose curb chain, but my snaffle hangs pretty low too. I must really be a yahoo, but I have never pulled the bit thru any horses mouth.
On the flip side, why is it considered perfectly normal to TIE the horses mouth closed. I find that a lot more strange than a curb chain hanging loose.
Personally, I want my horse to feel as less pressure as possible, meaning, my signal needs to be even more slight for the horse to feel it.
I have seen some nosebands and flash’s extremely tight, of course, to prevent the horse from messing w/the bit, but I think, if the horse had less pressure on it’s mouth, the bit wouldn’t be a big deal. jmo
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7974923]
Well, you also make the assumption, that IF someone uses a curb strap on the snaffle, they then are prone to pulling bits through a horse’s mouth, which is not correct either.[/QUOTE]
No you are making an very very incorrect assumption. I know the purpose of the curb strap, and galloped horses at the race track for over a decade, and each and every race horse went to the track with a curb strap on the ENGLISH bridle. And I worked for a hall of fame trainer, who had some of the best exercise riders (or riders period) in the country working for him, and NEVER did I feel that any of those riders were prone to pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. The cheapest horse in that barn was worth six figures, and they got the best of everything every minute of every day.
[QUOTE=Flash44;7975883]
No you are making an very very incorrect assumption. I know the purpose of the curb strap, and galloped horses at the race track for over a decade, and each and every race horse went to the track with a curb strap on the ENGLISH bridle. And I worked for a hall of fame trainer, who had some of the best exercise riders (or riders period) in the country working for him, and NEVER did I feel that any of those riders were prone to pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. The cheapest horse in that barn was worth six figures, and they got the best of everything every minute of every day.[/QUOTE]
So then, why, when the reason is given for that curb strap on the snaffle bridle, does it come across in this thread, should you have that strap there, then you must be prone to pulling a bit through that mouth, either because that headstall is not adjusted correctly, you have not done the ground work that will eliminate 100% of that ever happening, or , otherwise, the only assumption left, is that you are too stupid not to have it there in the first place
Just because Bluely convinced some impressionable student of his, that the curb strap on that snaffle is redundant, means nothing, until maybe he shows his exceptional wisdom to proven horsemen, like the ones I posted, and they then have a light bulb moment, and decide, 'gee, I might as well take that strap off, as to leave it on, makes me need to justify my horsemanship, ie-I might be the type to actually pull a bit through the mouth
Will this explanation be more acceptable:
from the Western point of view, the snaffle is a tool that is only used on young, green horses; once the horses mature and are more ‘finished’ in its training you use a curb bit (which is better for one-handed riding).Those finished horses are referred to as ‘bridle horses,’ because they are well enough trained to ride one-handed in a full bridle, with very little pressure actually used on the bit. This is the end result in training the Western horses while some English horses will remain in the snaffle forever.
If your use of the snaffle is strictly for colts, you know that you’ll be occasionally using a lot of pull to guide the horse in a certain direction and the curb strap is there to help hold the bit in the center of the horse’s mouth. You should not need this advantage on a well trained horse, which is the perspective most English people have since they are not oriented toward colt-starting. - See more at: http://cha-ahse.org/store/pages/188/SNAFFLE.html#sthash.ZstdlBmZ.dpuf
