snaffle with a curb strap

[KIloBright]

This, from Stacy Westfall:

When and why should I use a chin strap?

Chin straps are used with both snaffle bits and shanked bits, but for different reasons. The purpose of using a chin strap with a snaffle bit is to prevent the bit from being pulled through the horses mouth in the event of an emergency. For example if while using a snaffle bit your horse bolts and you pull his head to the left to do a one-rein emergency stop there is a chance that your horse could open his mouth and the right side of the bit could slide through his mouth leaving the cheek piece of the headstall where the bit should be. To prevent this from happening a simple leather chin strap will stop the bit. In this case the chin strap is not being used as a leverage tool.

When a chin strap is added to a bit with a shank the purpose is to help the bit function as it was designed to with leverage. Using a shanked bit without a chin strap is possible but it does not allow the bit to function as it was designed.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7975883]
No you are making an very very incorrect assumption. I know the purpose of the curb strap, and galloped horses at the race track for over a decade, and each and every race horse went to the track with a curb strap on the ENGLISH bridle. And I worked for a hall of fame trainer, who had some of the best exercise riders (or riders period) in the country working for him, and NEVER did I feel that any of those riders were prone to pulling a bit through a horse’s mouth. The cheapest horse in that barn was worth six figures, and they got the best of everything every minute of every day.[/QUOTE]

Well, race horses aren’t trained in the same way for the same type of events that a western horse is, either. Race horses run. You aren’t asking them to learn all the physical skills necessary to be a reiner or cutter, or even a western pleasure horse and a race horse is not anywhere close to being broke like a western show horse is. It’s comparing apples to oranges.

If trainers at the track ARE using curb straps on horses, then what’s it there for? Granted, it was a long time ago, but when I worked the back side, every trainer I came across used the curb strap to avoid pulling the bit through the mouth. Western trainers aren’t “prone” to pulling the bit through the mouth, either. But ***t happens, and you’d damn well better be prepared when it does.

I’m not seeing what all the controversy is about here, quite frankly. Western trainers have been using a curb on a snaffle (no cavasson) forever for a legitimate reason. I can remember back to the late 50s and it was a common training practice back then. Those of us who have bred, trained and shown at world class western venues probably know a thing or two about what it takes to get there.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Beverley]

Well, Go Fish, someone asked for input and people gave input. And your problem with that is…?

[KIloBright]

The OP, in the beginning, being new to western, asked a legitimate question, and it was answered by those of us who train western, as to why that curb strap on a snaffle was used, not my just me, or some other western riders here, but by some pretty well known and respected western trainers, that I felt I had to refer to, for justification… The known industry stance, regarding that curb strap on that snaffle, should have been end of story.
Instead, there arose the posts that insinuated no curb strap was needed on a snaffle, or if it was used, then that person must have bad hands, not adjusted the head stall correctly, did not do enough ground work, or even just knew no better, having an annoying strap hanging there, and that was the problem
The oP asked as to why, and that was answered by myself ,and a few others.
Suddenly, found that those of us who used that curb strap had to be on the defensive-so you wonder as to why a circus evolved!

[Bluey]

On the other hand, consider all the centuries of people in Europe using a snaffle without a curb strap and no one is pulling snaffles thru mouths.
Remember, people in Europe practically use only a snaffle a good 98% of the time they ride, there were no western curbs of any kind for those centuries.
That alone ought to tell us a snaffle doesn’t need that strap.

I think that using that curb strap hanging useless down there, banging around, is a TRADITION someone started and people keep repeating “it is so someone doesn’t pull the snaffle thru the mouth”, but it really doesn’t do much or hardly ever comes into play as some believe it may, because it is hanging down there too low to do much if that were to happen.

Like tying a horse’s head back “to soak”, something that if anyone thinks about it would realize they will end with a stiff and sore horse, try tying your head between your legs for ten minutes and stand there and/or someone make you move around like that and then turns you loose, how stiff and sore you may feel, much less when people, as I have seen, do it some times for much longer time.

Not even counting the times a horse fights it and gets more seriously injured.

I think that it is not silly to question what we do, because “everyone else does it”, because ‘it is tradition’, because “this or that top trainer does it”, without being sure it makes sense to us.

If it makes sense to you, do it, but expect to hear it doesn’t to others and why, when the question may come up.

[Beverley]

And, some of ‘those of us who train western’ haven’t had a need to ever use a curb strap on a snaffle over the span of 50 years (not insinuation, statement of fact), but we really don’t care if others do.

Likewise, some of us don’t automatically do things because some well known trainer says so, or because ‘it’s always been done that way.’ Some of us have been fortunate to know some genuinely good horsemen that most have never heard of, and having a curb strap on their snaffles, or not, was not what they hung their skills and talents on.

I’ve appreciated the thread because at long last I have heard from someone to whom the particular sh*t has happened. We are all no doubt swayed by our personal experiences. In my own case, I’ve never had it happen, but I have lost a horse to lightning, so for me, a snaffle through the mouth is a rarer possibility than my own reality of a lightning kill.

As for making mountains out of molehills, isn’t that the official sport of the COTH BB?

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7979068]
On the other hand, consider all the centuries of people in Europe using a snaffle without a curb strap and no one is pulling snaffles thru mouths.
Remember, people in Europe practically use only a snaffle a good 98% of the time they ride, there were no western curbs of any kind for those centuries.
That alone ought to tell us a snaffle doesn’t need that strap.

I think that using that curb strap hanging useless down there, banging around, is a TRADITION someone started and people keep repeating “it is so someone doesn’t pull the snaffle thru the mouth”, but it really doesn’t do much or hardly ever comes into play as some believe it may, because it is hanging down there too low to do much if that were to happen.

Like tying a horse’s head back “to soak”, something that if anyone thinks about it would realize they will end with a stiff and sore horse, try tying your head between your legs for ten minutes and stand there and/or someone make you move around like that and then turns you loose, how stiff and sore you may feel, much less when people, as I have seen, do it some times for much longer time.

Not even counting the times a horse fights it and gets more seriously injured.

I think that it is not silly to question what we do, because “everyone else does it”, because ‘it is tradition’, because “this or that top trainer does it”, without being sure it makes sense to us.

If it makes sense to you, do it, but expect to hear it doesn’t to others and why, when the question may come up.[/QUOTE]

Agree. I went 45 years riding English and never saw a curb strap except on a pelham or kimberwick, and never saw anyone pull a bit through a horse’s mouth. Good riders, bad riders, beginner riders, green horses, crazy horses, crazy situations, the whole nine yards.

So when someone’s reason for using a curb strap on a snaffle bit is to prevent the bit from being pulled through the mouth I naturally wonder what is going on that the rider is worried about pulling the bit through the horse’s mouth. If the answer is that because there is an one in a ten thousand chance that a situation might arise where the bit might be pulled through the horse’s mouth, then fine. I think there is a better chance of the helmetless western rider sustaining a head injury than pulling the bit through the horse’s mouth, but tradition dictates a curb strap be used on the young green horse but also dictates that the rider go helmetless. Tradition trumps common sense, lesson learned.

[PeanutButterPony]

I’ve seen it

In the warm up at an AQHA show in Georgia, gosh I was a teen at the time so it’s been a while. Local yocal trainer (LYT) riding a colt in a one eared bridle and a loose ring snaffle LYT snatched colt up and snatched him around, and got after him for some unseen transgression (flicked an ear, maybe?) then sent him down the rail again. Other LYT says 'heydareJoe, you done pulled your snaffle slap through that colts mouth!" LYT “Say what?” Other LYT repeats himself. LYT leans out and down, sees the deal, and by golly just snatches that sucker back into place. Got to love the complacent, half dead, mostly discouraged Western Pleasure horse.

I use one on a loose ring or eggbut if I think about it, but I use them so rarely it’s likely I’d forget. I mostly ride in a Myler with a D ring, and usually with a cavesson. JME.

[PeanutButterPony]

the Bucks Genuine Fever colt in this video has a nice quiet mouth and a good handed rider. watch the first 1:15 seconds to see him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOhpet9xWtY

this colt is much ‘gappier’ in the mouth and I can see how a bad cow could result in a snaffle through the mouth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mCDMRExazM

unrelated…this is one odd wreck.

http://youtu.be/8ps2onlpy3Q

[KIloBright]

Agree. I went 45 years riding English and never saw a curb strap except on a pelham or kimberwick, and never saw anyone pull a bit through a horse’s mouth. Good riders, bad riders, beginner riders, green horses, crazy horses, crazy situations, the whole nine yards.( preceding by Flash )

Well, my God, if it was done English it must be right, not to mention that bridles with both cavassons and nosebands are used, and that bit is adjusted often so that there are three wrinkles in the corner of that mouth, and that English horses are ridden all of their life in snaffles ( unless of course a curb is added, like kimberwicks for non pros, for control
Just for reference, Flash, I have ridden western for as long as you have ridden English, and guess what? I have never used cavassons, dropped nose bands figure 8 nosebands, or any of that other paraphernalia often seen on English horses with my western headstalls. What the heck does what you rode with in an English headstall have to do with anything?
Kimberwichs, used in stock horse HUS, are a sign of a non pro or youth, as open professional riders use a D ring snaffle-and there certainly is no curb strap on those bridles, as they do have nosebands and cavassons, plus they are not jr horses taking a cow down the fence!
Yes, those of you here who have ridden all their life with snaffle and no curb straps are horsemen beyond compare. Why not discuss with those professional that use them, tell them the error of their ways
Give us some references, where professionals in the industry gives cons on using that curb strap, versus the standard reason for doing so
I can find references where there is discord on using things like running martingales and standing martingales, draw reins, but funny, none on using that curb straP

By the way, I do also ride HUS, using a D ring snaffle and an English headstall, and surprise, never use a curb strap

[KIloBright]

A final few general comments, and i apologize to anyone that truly wanted to learn a bit more about riding western, as opposed to the specific class western riding, and asked genuine questions
This board appears to be mainly English, that added a western division
Those old ‘boys’, in the western division, are attached to ‘classical horsemanship’, which in itself is not bad, but it becomes that way, when any modern western training is put down, and considered inferior, and not recognized it it’s own way of producing horses that are softer, with more finesse then those original western horses ever were.
Like Warmbloods, western breeding programs have become more specific, producing horses in body type and ability, suited for a particular discipline, and those old all around horses of the past, able to win western pleasure and reining at the same time , don’t exist, because all disciplines have become tougher and more specific
The posts that I have seen, are indirect ways to try and put down western riding, versus truly trying to understand the difference between western and English, and training modifications at upper end, although I more than agree you have to have that horse soft in his entire body- you can’t ride a board.

We have the peanut rolling posts, with no intention to acknowledge the training and movement of a good western pl horse, according to present standards

Next, we have the 'downhill conformation of western horses, taking halter horse as the standard
Now we have this stupid irrelevant discussion of the use of a curb strap on a snaffle, no doubt confusing the OP, who truly just wanted a reason, and I think the statement that I posted, from Stacy Westfall, pretty much sums it up and explains it to anyone not familiar with western training

Old masters, are beyond approach here by some of these same people, who at the same time, have no respect towards modern western trainers , thinking that they are a better source of reference

How would it go over, were I or someone else to post similar type threads on the English section?

How about, why are cavassons present on all English Bridles? Is it a fad, or did someone at some time decide, why teach a horse to work with a quiet and closed mouth, when we can just use a cavasson, have that mouth forced closed, and then convince ourselves that the foamy and frothy mouth means the horse likes the bit?
Why are many English horses shown ridden on tight rein contact, and at times, even behind the vertical?

I have not seen one post that asked,’ how do you get a horse to rate speed, keep topline and collection, without any bit support?’
Sorry, but I am never one to not express as to what I see and believe in
Yes, this post might seem irrelevant to this thread, but believe me, it naturally grew out of it,plus built on some past threads

[Raleigh_s_Mom]

I think this type of “western training” in these videos is a perfect example of why a “curb” strap with a snaffle would be a good thing. Do those of you with years and years of experience training “western” and not seeing the need for a “curb” strap with a snaffle do this type of “western” training?

That being said. I ride western, started my two-year-old versatility horse in a snaffle, and never felt the need to use a “curb” strap with the snaffle (despite my trainer suggesting I get one). We even worked cows many times in the snaffle. However, I knew my level of cow work was not a level where I was worried about pulling the snaffle through my horses mouth.

For whatever reason on COTH, and probably most forums, there are a lot of generalizations and absolutes.

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7979675]
the Bucks Genuine Fever colt in this video has a nice quiet mouth and a good handed rider. watch the first 1:15 seconds to see him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOhpet9xWtY

this colt is much ‘gappier’ in the mouth and I can see how a bad cow could result in a snaffle through the mouth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mCDMRExazM

unrelated…this is one odd wreck.

http://youtu.be/8ps2onlpy3Q[/QUOTE]

[Raleigh_s_Mom]

One more thing… I used to chuckle about the threads on the dressage forum about Dressage (big D) vs. dressage (little d), but maybe I am starting to understand. There is western, and then there is Western.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7981108]
Agree. I went 45 years riding English and never saw a curb strap except on a pelham or kimberwick, and never saw anyone pull a bit through a horse’s mouth. Good riders, bad riders, beginner riders, green horses, crazy horses, crazy situations, the whole nine yards.( preceding by Flash )

Well, my God, if it was done English it must be right, not to mention that bridles with both cavassons and nosebands are used, and that bit is adjusted often so that there are three wrinkles in the corner of that mouth, and that English horses are ridden all of their life in snaffles ( unless of course a curb is added, like kimberwicks for non pros, for control
Just for reference, Flash, I have ridden western for as long as you have ridden English, and guess what? I have never used cavassons, dropped nose bands figure 8 nosebands, or any of that other paraphernalia often seen on English horses with my western headstalls. What the heck does what you rode with in an English headstall have to do with anything?
Kimberwichs, used in stock horse HUS, are a sign of a non pro or youth, as open professional riders use a D ring snaffle-and there certainly is no curb strap on those bridles, as they do have nosebands and cavassons, plus they are not jr horses taking a cow down the fence!
Yes, those of you here who have ridden all their life with snaffle and no curb straps are horsemen beyond compare. Why not discuss with those professional that use them, tell them the error of their ways
Give us some references, where professionals in the industry gives cons on using that curb strap, versus the standard reason for doing so
I can find references where there is discord on using things like running martingales and standing martingales, draw reins, but funny, none on using that curb straP

By the way, I do also ride HUS, using a D ring snaffle and an English headstall, and surprise, never use a curb strap[/QUOTE]

Race horses don’t normally go in nosebands. And what do you mean by “Well, my God, if it was done English it must be right?” How did you erroneously conclude that I think English is better than Western when I explicitly included bad riders, beginner riders, in my post???

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Raleigh’s Mom;7982651]
One more thing… I used to chuckle about the threads on the dressage forum about Dressage (big D) vs. dressage (little d), but maybe I am starting to understand. There is western, and then there is Western. ;)[/QUOTE]

Fabulous…I think you nailed it!

[KIloBright]

If you can show me the physics as to how one could possibly accidentally pull the bit through the mouth, using ahead stall with a noseband and cavasson, I’m all ears
We are talking about how Stacy Westfall described it, just pulling some of the opposite ring ,into the mouth.
I have a picture (if you get Gaitpost, have a look )It shows Eric Lamaze (great show jumper ! ), pulling his horse around, after a jump, at speed, and if he did not have that canvass on the horse, no way would that bit not have been pulled through the mouth, to some extent
To those that state the cavasson on an English bridle does not serve the same purpose as that curb strap on a western snaffle bridle, please explains the physics to me. That cavasson is under the headstall, so how on earth would you have the same effect, far as the possibility of pulling that bit through the mouth? You would need to do a transport through that cavasson.
That curb strap is non functioning, so why the big deal?
I can look on figure 8 nose bands and dropped nose bands, and wonder why in hell you would need those, if your horse was truly soft to the bit
I can see a horse being forced to work with a closed mouth, versus having no cavasson, or noseband, and through training, having that horse accept that bit, and work with a quiet and closed mouth on his own
There are those of us that have have worked towards that goal, versus dabbling in western
Just because you start horses with a western saddle, does not mean you have truly trained western all your life, never needing that curb strap.

[no.stirrups]

consider all the centuries of people in Europe using a snaffle without a curb strap and no one is pulling snaffles thru mouths.
Remember, people in Europe practically use only a snaffle a good 98% of the time they ride, there were no western curbs of any kind for those centuries.
That alone ought to tell us a snaffle doesn’t need that strap.

Um, no. Sorry. From the Baroque period, horses were started in a cavesson before graduating to a curb, and that tradition continued for centuries. Snaffles are a relatively modern invention.

And for those who say that English riders don’t pull bits through their horse’s mouths, I have a question: why were full cheeks and D-rings invented?

Answer: because bits with small round rings, (such as those typically used by western riders) are too easily pulled through the horse’s mouth.

History is fascinating.