So sorry, Musical Jumper....

[Natty_Dread]

What a bummer:

I have never posted a response but have followed along this thread since the beginning. Believe me I know how hard it is to go thru a time like this. But, unfortunately, this is the reality and the responsibility that we have when owning animals. It is our duty to eventually make those most difficult of decisions when it is necessary.
The question I have is: He was only a 5 year old?!?! Wow, so young! What was wrong with him? Did your vet have any idea? I realize that his illness was not the immediate cause of his death but I have to wonder what was wrong. I realize it is difficult to talk about but I see you spend alot of time on these boards and was wondering when/if you are ready could you fill us in?

[JustJump]

to their own devices w/no expert to turn to who is on the scene…From what I gather, the parents here were not knowedgeable, or forceful, or perhaps even interested enough to make a difference. I don’t know why other adults assumed that everything would be fine without outside assistance and advice. It is far too difficult to “read” a situation via cyberspace to make judgements, but from MJ’s comments, its pretty clear that she has great difficulty relating to those around her–family, kids at school, etc–the child is a community of one, it seems, save for the small (and might I add rather sadly desperate at times) interactions she has had till now on this BB. For some reason, she didn’t recognize or admit that one person can not always go it alone. I do not think it is constructive at all to hold her to some huge standard of responsibility over this matter–it is far from clear how much understanding she has for what happened and the reasons for it. I might add that since apparently no one bothered to check on the situation until the end, that it is far from clear, and maybe will never be clear to anyone. Flaming MJ long-distance will not change what happened and may only serve to precipitate further crisis in a situation that does not seem to me to be very stable…I urge all to consider very carefully anything that is said–one life has already been lost; further recriminations are liable to cause more damage and do not serve any good purpose at this point. I hope that whatever “private” initiatives are underway are successful, and that MJ will be helped to develop the skills she needs to cope with life.

[suzy]

Fairweather asked: How can we help this from happening again? Looking back–what could have been done? What can we do in the future?

I think these are excellent questions and would like to hear people’s thoughts.

[Nirvana]

Did anyone read MJ’s post about her parents wanting to give her horse away? Was I the only one who noticed this particular line:

“father wants to get rid of the horse b/c they say it is too stressing and they are tired of looking at him”

Perhaps they were tired of looking at an emanciated horse and wanted to do what was best for him. After all they considered giving him away while he was sick (starved); it sounds to me like despite the fact that they may not possess a lot of horse sense that they could recognize a problem when they saw one. After all, how much horse sense do you need to see a horse’s ribs sticking out? This quote of her father being tired of looking at him could go 2 ways I guess…they were “tired of looking at him” in the metaphorical sense, meaning they were tired of having him on their property, or they were “tired of looking at him” literally…perhaps because the sight of her malnourished horse made her parents sick…if that’s the case, I wish they would have just done it…and gotten her some counseling before the horse had to com to such a tragic end.

But, I think the most ironic part of that post is MJ’s statement about her horses being cared for during the summer by her parents…

“he [the pony] will actually survive the summer without me, seger could not”

That certainly does not seem to be the case…I wish those parents had actually gone through with it and given him to someone who could take care of him…hopefully they will realize their error with Seger and send the pony to a caring home asap.

[Lisamarie8]

I’ve been following your story with Segar and it’s outcome is heartbreaking. As someone who is so in love with her horses I can only imagine what you’re going through.

This is one of my favorite Poems, and while i’ve read it a million times, it always seems to strike a needed nerve (people/horses…a feeling of loss whaever the circumstance) It’s healthy to mourn now, and cry, and realize your loss. Then, later you can be happy that you had such a special horse enter your life, even if he was only to leave it so swiftly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I never crossed your threshold with a grief
But that I went without it; never came
Heart hungry but you fed me, eased the blame,
and gave sorrow solace and relief

I never left you but I took away
The love that drew me to your side again
Through that wide door that never could remain
Quite closed between us for a little day

Oh! friend, who gave and comforted, who knew
so overwell the want of heart and mind,
Where may I turn for solace now, or find
Relief from this unceasing loss of you

Be it for fault, for folly, or for sin,
Oh! Terrible my penance, and most sore
To face the tragedy of that closed door
Whereby I pass by and may not enter in.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

–My most accommodating strength is my willingness to humiliate myself

[Natty_Dread]

I couldn’t agree more!

You make an appointment to get a mare preg checked, to castrate, to pre-purchase a horse, to do normal maintenance…blah, blah, blah.

You do not make an appointment when a horse is obviously ill ie: weight loss, diarrhea, general maylays.

Any vet, i mean anybody should be called when it is so apparent that the horse is ill.

I can’t not swallow the fact that the vet came out pulled blood took a wait and see approach and then bada-bing the put the horse down.

Not to beat a dead horse (oops no pun intended) I know this is all moot now…but why put this on a public bulletin board? It is a tough crowd full of a load of extremely compassionate and knowledgable people. I can almost envision some piling in their cars to go to Indiana to help. I know now that if I posted a “what do you think” question I would get a ton of valid responses. Many of which I am certain I could really use. I just can not get over that this whole thing led to a five year old thoroughbred off the track to get euthanized for becoming cast. I have got to let this go.

[Hilary]

Heather’s post about the issues rural vets see with people who simply do not know better, promted me to share my one (and hopefully only) rescue intervention.

I was asked to trailer and house a horse owned by former boarders. They had free-leased their horse to a woman when their daughter stopped riding. This person subsequently became unable to care for the horse and ASSURED the owners that the family she found to take him was competent. Mom had horses in the past, and the 2 kids had other animals. Long story short, “mom” left and the horse, in the care of “dad” and the 12 year old girl, slowly starved.

Someone reported the situation, and the owners wanted to take him back but the man refused to give him up, and also refused to acknowledge that the horse was anything but fine. Offers of nearby pasture and extra care were refused and the man was belligerent and threatening to anyone who came near.

Because the owners had their papers, they were legally allowed to take him away but a police escort was needed to get the horse out of the home, (I had to park my trailer 1/2 a mile away) and I reeled when I saw him. The horse was skeletal. Tnen, an even bigger shock- the policeman asked me “this is too thin for a horse?” He had no idea that he was looking at a horse who could barely still walk. I pointed out all the things you should not see - the spine, the hip bones, dipped neck, the eye hollows, the falling out hair, and that sickly sweet smell of the body eating itelf. This points to the fact that many many people know very little about animals, and what is “obvious” to us, is news to them. Like Heather’s friend we need to educate people like this - at least that cop will know a starving horse next time he comes across one.

I took him home, and my vet examined him and said that he was so malnourished that his feet had not grown in several months.

The family who had allowed this to happen was in denial and so involved with their own conflicts (Dad was punishing his ex-wife, among other things) that they could not see clearly. The cop had to explain to the sobbing 12 year old girl that it was NOT her fault that “her” horse had to leave.

As I said, I hope this is the only time I ever have to see a horse like this, but boy were my eyes opened to the social issues that can be involved as well as the animal issues.

The happy ending is that he is now fat and well loved in a home where he can live out his days.

[Everythingbutwings]

M_J had posted on the BB that the vet said ulcers and THEN emailed me that she would let me know when the test results came back what the indications were.

She also told at least one person the day the horse became cast that it had broken it’s back and tail, where we now know that the horse was simply exhausted, malnourished and unable to rise.

The one thing we do know from M_J is that she created a fiction and presented it to us. It was a work in progress more interesting to her than caring for her animal.

[Luv2ride]

It sounds like it was for the best.

You have the right thought, he his in horesy heaven with all the other great horses.

Just know that I am thinking of you
~Nikki and Ethan~

*Whoever said money can’t buy you happiness, never owned a horse

[This message was edited by Louise on Oct. 19, 2001 at 05:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by Louise on Oct. 19, 2001 at 05:40 PM.]

[Bumpkin]

I believe most of us had this awful sick gut feeling that would not go away.
“Not that it gives us any satisfaction in saying so”.

I had it looking at the photo of that poor horse in the field with the girl in the dress. He looked skinny and sad with a look I cannot really put down in words.

I don’t want to think of him as Segar now but as the name the person who truly loved him gave him and registered him with. Cherry Upper.

Touche you know if there is anything we can do for you or your Vet you just have to ask.

[LAZ]

My point(s) on this thing is this–

1. We should do our best to help educate/manage people so this sort of thing does not happen.

2. That means we have to do it in our own backyards. The cyber world is too big to help horses such as Seger. It is too diffuse to help people such as M-J. We do not know each other in person, most of us. A faceless person in in one location cannot physically manage someone they’ve never met/seen/know in another location.

3. If you all feel this strongly about this, (and I’ve already suggested this, as have several other posters) get involved in a rescue, a humane society, a child abuse hotline, a suicide hotline, something productive. I’ve worked on two of those, and it is eye opening.

4. Be sure you’d want to say whatever you say in print in person. I’ve embarrassed myself with a mean comment today & had to take it back. It didn’t taste nearly so good swallowing it…

[Erin]

A couple of other things I want to add to the discussion.

It makes me uneasy that people now think we should take any posts that don’t seem “quite right” as a call to “rock the f-ing boat,” as someone put it.

Like a lot of people, I got some weird vibes from MJ’s posts. Nothing that would make me suspect a horse was at risk, but some weird vibes nonetheless.

If you go back and look at some of the most recent threads, a lot of BBers felt the same way, and started questioning her… gently at first, then more demanding. You need to get a vet out NOW, you need to get a blanket NOW, that kind of thing.

I don’t think there is anything that anyone here could have said that would have made a difference, short of going out and seeing the horse themselves, seeing he was possibly in trouble, and calling a vet or other authority themselves.

In hindsight, it’s easy to say that more drastic step should have been taken. But that’s easy ONLY in hindsight.

One of the things that I have always liked about these boards is that they’re a relatively friendly place. Yes, there are arguments, often heated. But nothing like you would see on Usenet, for example. I don’t think people here are afraid to make waves, but they don’t usually do so unjustifiably.

I would hate to see this BB become a place where people felt it was somehow their duty to be confrontational whenever they had a doubt. Let’s remember, this is cyberspace… misunderstandings abound even in the most innocuous of conversations.

There’s a good community of people here, and I think MJ’s situation was handled about as well as it could have been, considering the fact that no one here knew her in person or was really in her neighborhood. Everyone offered great advice, when it looked like she might not be doing all she could, people told her so. Geez, half a dozen people offered to GIVE her a blanket. Talk about going above and beyond the call of duty.

I think this community HAS to be based on trust. It makes me sad to see some of our lovely juniors apologizing for being trusting. That’s nothing to apologize for.

In a way, this is lot like the events of Sept. 11. People’s trust was shaken then too.

This event is a sad reminder that there are people out there who don’t take great care of their horses. But remember, one person in a community of over 4,000…

The vast majority of people here are deserving of being trusted. While there’s no reason not to politely voice a concern when you have one, there’s also no reason to assume the worst case scenario.

[This message was edited by Erin on Oct. 25, 2001 at 10:55 AM.]

[Seven]

I definitely think you should attend the concert – you’ll have plenty of opportunities to greive over the next several weeks and taking some time to perhaps have a little fun won’t change that inevitable circumstance.

And, btw, I noticed we have the SAME birthdate! Different years of course…but I knew there was a reason I liked you!

=^+^=

[JustJump]

It’s my guess that MJ is quite removed from reality–I sincerely hope she gets the help she so obviously needs.

She was advised many many times to get the vet out; it’s a shame, Touche, that you seem not to have seen those posts–they appeared over a long period of time (more than a month) and surely they would have set t your alarm bells ringing if you had seen them. So many excuses as to why there was no vet, no trailer, etc…and then the ones about her father deciding to send the horse away, and her mother suggetsting the horse be put down. This was a long time coming, and a BB community can do only so much with words.

At this point, it can only be hoped that no further harm will result from this…Segar’s death was a tragedy, and there is no going back. Maybe Touche can reassure us on this point, but from looking at her website and her posts, it doesn’t seem that MJ has many places left to turn to–I pray that she doesn’t do anything drastic and that she and her family begin to face the problems that they have. Again, I ask that those here on the BB consider that the continued negative comments, however well-justified, may be very destructive in what appears to be a fragile situation.

[PMJ]

I think what bothers me at this point is the fact that MJ was involved in Pony Club at a point and evidently did well at know down. Even if the PC was a small one, and she did not like them, had she need the help as she evidently did, there was help to be found. I made some comments about not blaming the vet, and now I have to wonder when the initial vet visit was made because from what I have read it seems like feet were dragged when it came to getting an appointment. One thing that does bother me is the fact that there is always an excuse–from a vet not being good enough to exaustion. So sad

[lilblackhorse]

said that? Oh, I have fallen behind on my Star Trek trivia…LOLOL
It’s still a good quote, and you have a valid point in your post.

“Wherever you go-there you are!”

[dmj]

KAM you read my mind.

Go Bruins

[Kcorseinop]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Touche’:
That e-mail was written the evening of the incident when I was still very freshly angry after checking the COTH BB and seeing that MJ had ignored my order for her ot stay off. The e-mail in question was written privately to the BB monitor AFTER MJ ignored my order for her to stay off. I felt the monitors should know the truth and had asked if they could block messages from MJ. They can’t. I also gave the monitors permission to forward that letter onto anyone whom they thought needed to see it. Had MJ listened, I would never have had to let anyone know. As you can see, I did not want to make it a public discussion. Have you read the part about me willing to make any apology to anyone if I am wrong??? Did you also see the part where I said that I do not hate MJ? I am waiting for MJ to show me a written statement from the Vet. MJ knows that I will not get into a bickering match with her until I see the report, and niether will I with you. Until then, I have nothing left to discuss with you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok I really don’t mean to be rude, and I don’t want to get into a battle, but why should MJ stay off the BB? You are not her mother, she lives her own life and she can make her own decisions. If you are that concerned then you should have talked to her parents. Like teenagers ever listen anyways.
Anyways- as I said above, I really don’t want to get into a fight or anything, so will stay off this thread from now on and let you guys continue with your business. Anyone who has something to say to me is more than welcome to e-mail me.

[Seven]

I saw it… while it was a work in progress and then a few days later when it was complete. I haven’t been able to look at it since because it makes me angry.

Has it been changed?

=^+^=

[Miniwelsh]

Erin, does this mean we get another off topic day???

Behind every good woman lies a trail of men