So sorry, Musical Jumper....

I have followed all these threads, but haven’t posted until now.

I will not be offering my opinion on this turn of events, because I don’t think it will add anything. What I would like to do is relate a story of a friend of mine–not to make specific commentary on this incident, but rather attempt to point out that there are a lot of horsepeople in the world who aren’t like us, and thus aren’t necessarily wrong.

I have a dear friend who is an equine vet–she practiced for many years in the Middleburg area and her clients were the creme de le creme of the racing, hunter/jumper, eventing, and dressage worlds. She said 90% of the serious (i.w. life-threatening or life-ending) injuries and illnesses were cause by a conscious decision of an owner/trainer/rider to compete an animal in its discipline–often because the horse “wasn’t quite right”, but often just because of the inherent risk in competition. To be frank, she got tired of putting horses back together, only to have to do it all over again the next month.

So, she took a position in rural southern Virginia–some competitove types, but far more breeding and backyard folks. I spoke to her about a month after she had moved and asked how it was going. She related that it had been a real shock–because 90% of the seriious cases she was treating now were related to “ignorance” injuries. Including injuries realted to innapropriate fencing materials, innapropriate care and in one memorable case, a pony that had been left in the front yard tied to a truck tire, so it “could eat some grass”. I asked her if she was rethinking the move, and to my surprise, she said “Absolutely not!” Her pointwas that while the ignorance injuries were often mind-boggling, the people’s general response when she explained the cause of the injury and how to prevent it in the future was shocked horror that they had done something wrong, and would seek to make amends to prevent futur problems.

“At least these people are willing to learn from their mistakes,” she said. “It’s a lot better to have to treat the same horse for three different ingnorance injures, than to treat the same horse for the same problem again and again, because “he has to go” to the next horse show, event, or race. I’d rather stich up 6 million wire cuts, than have to inject for the hundreth time the joints of some poor old campaigner whose crippled and should be retired, but “has to get Suzy to Indoors”.”

An interesting point, I thought. Regardless of my personal feelings about the ultimate outcome in this case, I am uncomfrotable with a tone I sense in these posts that seems to say "If you aren’t(a)in a show/boarding facility; (b)incredibly experienced or knowleadgable; ©over 25 years of age; (d) have a certain amount of income, etc., etc., you don’t deserve to own a horse. This gets into a dangerous sliipery-slope type of territory very quickly, that I think we need to be careful of.

1 Like

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thanks for calling me insane. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that. Have I not said a MILLION times I don’t agree with what she did, and that helping her would be more productive that sitting here SAYING she needs help? Yeah, i’m pretty sure I have. Thanks for not poining that out, though. Are you Tiffany? NO! So how on earth would you know if she feels guilty or not? Why the hell would she come back here? No matter what she says she will get pounced on. I don’t blame her for never coming back! Now, as I said before, if you have something to say to me then e-mail me. I don’t want to talk about it on here anymore!! It’s not rocket science… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For your information, I was not calling YOU in particular insane. But you were saying, basically, that all teenagers are crazy suicidal looneys that pull the trigger at the slightest provocation. I was saying that I am a teenager and I am not a nutball. In that sense, anyway.

There are only so many ways people can help someone that they have no way of contacting in person. We’ve offered support, pity, sympathy, everything but the clothes off our backs for this girl. I mean, what do you want me to do? Give her the number of a good phsychiatrist? Yeah, that should make her feel wonderful. Or perhaps I should send her my horse to replace the one she lost? Cookies? Candy? Apple pie?
I mean, what do you want us to do? I think everyone here has been helpful WAY, WAY above and beyond the call of duty. Tiffany was the one who decided to ignore all the very useful advice she had been given.

Erin
~Stressed is Desserts written backwards…Concidence? I think not!~

Living Love
>
> -Written by Martin Scot Kosins,
> Author of “Maya’s First Rose”
>
>
> If you ever love an animal, there are three days in
> your life you will
> always
> remember…
>
> The first is a day, blessed with happiness, when you
> bring home your
> young
> new friend. You may have spent weeks deciding on a
> breed. You may have
> asked
> numerous opinions of many vets, or done long research
> in finding a
> breeder.
> Or, perhaps in a fleeting moment, you may have just
> chosen that
> silly looking mutt in a shelter–simple because
> something in its eyes
> reached
> your heart. But when you bring that chosen pet home,
> and watch it
> explore,
> and claim its special place in your hall or front
> room–and when you
> feel it
> brush against you for the first time–it instills a
> feeling of pure
> love you
> will carry with you through the many years to come.
>
> The second day will occur eight or nine or ten years
> later. It will be
> a day
> like any other. Routine and unexceptional. But, for a
> surprising
> instant, you
> will look at your longtime friend and see age where
> you once saw youth.
> You
> will see slow deliberate steps where you once saw
> energy. And you will
> see
> sleep where you once saw activity. So you will begin
> to adjust your
> friend’s
> diet–and you may add a pill or two to her food. And
> you may feel a
> growing
> fear deep within yourself, which bodes of a coming
> emptiness. And you
> will
> feel this uneasy feeling, on and off, until the third
> day finally
> arrives.
>
> And on this day–if your friend and God have not
> decided for you, then
> you
> will be faced with making a decision of your own–on
> behalf of your
> lifelong
> friend, and with the guidance of your own deepest
> Spirit. But whichever
> way
> your friend eventually leaves you—you will feel as
> alone as a single
> star
> in the dark night.
>
> If you are wise, you will let the tears flow as freely
> and as often as
> they
> must. And if you are typical, you will find that not
> many in your
> circle of
> family or friends will be able to understand your
> grief, or comfort
> you.
>
> But if you are true to the love of the pet you
> cherished through the
> many
> joy-filled years, you may find that a soul–a bit
> smaller in size than
> your
> own—seems to walk with you, at times, during the
> lonely days to come.
>
> And at moments when you least expect anything our of
> the ordinary to
> happen,
> you may feel something brush against your leg–very
> very lightly.
>
> And looking down at the place where your dear, perhaps
> dearest, friend
> used
> to lay—you will remember those three significant
> days. The memory
> will most
> likely be painful, and leave an ache in your
> heart—As time passes the
> ache
> will come and go as it has a life of its own. You will
> both reject it
> and
> embrace it, and it may confuse you. If you reject it,
> it will depress
> you. If
> you embrace it, it will deepen you. Either way, it
> will still be an
> ache.
>
> But there will be, I assure you, a fourth day
> when—along with the
> memory of
> your pet—and piercing through the heaviness in your
> heart—there
> will come
> a realization that belongs only to you. It will be as
> unique and strong
> as
> our relationship with each animal we have loved, and
> lost. This
> realization
> takes the form of a Living Love—like the heavenly
> scent of a rose
> that
> remains after the petals have wilted, this Love will
> remain and
> grow–and be
> there for us to remember. It is a love we have earned.
> It is the legacy
> our
> pets leave us when they go. And it is a gift we may
> keep with us as
> long as
> we live. It is a Love which is ours alone. And until
> we ourselves
> leave,
> perhaps to join our Beloved Pets–it is a Love that we
> will always
> possess.
> Living Love
>
>
>
>
>

Behind every good woman lies a trail of men

TXJumper said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But- I think that her parents must have been insane to think that a 16 year old can handle the expenses of a horse singlehandedly and it is way too much to expect a child to shoulder all the responsibility for an ailing pet, regardless of the diagnosis. I think adult intervention earlier on would have only helped matters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. My parents supported my riding from 4-16 and my mom rode as a child and when I was little. When I was 15 we retired my older horse and my pony (leased out horse, brought pony home to trail ride) and I got a job a week after my 16 B-Day. I leased a mare that fall (August- late October) and was working enough to pay her expenses and save money for half of a new horse. I took her to two horse trials (that I paid for) and then returned her - with $750 in the bank and knowing I had a grandfather who would lend me what I needed (I repaid) went horse shopping. I found a 3y/o TB in november 99 and for $1750 bought him, I borrowed $2000 from my grandfather and set up monthly payments until May 2001, when I graduated from HS. So I was 16years and 3 months old - I was an AP student at the public high school with a 3y/o OTTB. I worked enough to pay my $215/month board, my $125/month loan repayments to my grandfather, $160/month for lessons and $75 every 6 weeks for shoes, and still had enough to save up for gas/vet bills (just routine, I was lucky), etc. It can be done. I was well guided and chose to pay a ridiculous amount for board rather than keep Figgy in my backyard (free) because I didn’t have an arena. Kids are capable and can support their own equine habits. I got the feeling from MJ that she was finding jobs related to horses. But you cannot afford to support a horse working with them! Look elsewhere! I got a job at a cafe - there are more hours available and better wages.

*sorry, I just hate it when people make it sound like its so hard to support a horse, sure I was stressed, but because I really wanted to do it I could.

Laura

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kcorseinop:
Do you guys even realize that I, too, am 16 and I can assure you that, with the crap we go through as teenagers, something like that would drive me to kill myself. And no, I am not joking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As my mother used to tell my 14 yar-old rebellious self, “don’t tell me I don’t know what it’s like to be a teenager…I was one once!”

[This message was edited by Jane on Oct. 25, 2001 at 02:48 AM.]

The whole group at El Ranchito sends their regards, too, MJ. If it’s any consolation, I’m so glad you were there to say “Farewell for now” to Seger.

“Friends don’t let friends eat fish tacos.”

what made the jump from exhausted, cast horse to euthanization? Did he have other injuries, was there something else going on?

My understanding was that they had determined a course of action for the loss of weight and bad condition, pending test results. The next morning, MJ came out and found him cast and in distress. But what made the vet decide that putting him down was the only solution? Just trying to understand the logic, not criticizing MJ other than her statements just haven’t answered that question.

Laurie

This ‘incident’ is stupefying, upsetting; and I can’t help but feel great anger towards the reckless disregard for Seger’s welfare.

Youth does not absolve you from common sense. I have an 11-year-old daughter who rides - I have absolutely no doubt that had she happened upon a horse as emaciated as described, she’d have the wherewithal to call the vet immediately. There’s knowledge – and then there’s the common sense that’s acquired if one spends any time whatsoever around horses. That common sense doesn’t require an age of majority card.

As Tin and others have posted, there are many young teens who approach horse ownership with great dedication, bearing the weight of their reponsibility willingly, with great passion. What I find profoundly upsetting is MJ’s insistence that somehow she is the one to be pitied; the radius of her concern hasn’t shifted from herself to Seger. Yes, most teens are self-centered (I know I was) but at what point, when confronted with a starving horse, does one actually put the horse’s health and welfare before our own desires? Caring for a horse is not unlike parenting, at some point you have to realize, for the welfare of the horse or young child, that your own needs and desires rank second to theirs.

What she should have done, the help that was available to her had she asked, well, that’s all moot now. What remains relevant is our shared anger and horror that this tragedy unfolded before our very eyes, compounded and perpetuated by self-serving misinformation.

I’m having difficulty summoning up compassion for MJ; perhaps we’re all going through the collective stages of grief and we remain, for now, and understandably now that the truth has come out, fixated on anger.

My only concluding thought remains that had my 11-year-old enabled such a tragedy, I’d be as angry with her as I am now with MJ – the reality is, though, that even at 11, she would clearly and absolutely have known better.

MJ, if you’re lurking and reading through this thread, please seek some help.

m_j also said something about the ORIGINAL vet she called, would not do the tests. That is why she had to call another…Why wouldn’t a vet do tests???

Barb

Hanging around feeling bad about it wont bring him back — go, try to have fun…

Cass
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith…

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile…it makes people wonder what you have been doing

Thank you for posting the information. It gives a more complete viewpoint of what was going on and allows for a larger picture. It is also so much better than supposition. So sorry for all involved.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> That must make you proud <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I sure wouldn’t be proud but I would have no problem telling her how I feel to her face either. That goes for her parents as well. I will add in that I would have no problem reporting them to the appropriate authorities, too. I would do the same if it were a dog, cat or child that suffered this way and there was something that I could do.

LAZ - thank you for your editing. I agree that no amount of bitterness will change events gone by. I would feel terrible if this became more tragic and hope that the parents have wised up and that M_J is able to improve her life from here on.

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Oct. 24, 2001 at 03:49 PM.]

I just wanted to say I was sorry to all the people I was rude to on M_J’s posts defending her…I am so gulible I am also not quick to write someone off, I still dont know what to believe, I mean… I know what I should believe, but that little loyal, trusting, gulible part of me still wants to say that there had to be more

Anyway, sorry to anyone who I was rude to, and to all the people I flamed defending M_J. I feel retarded now.

Cass
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith…

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile…it makes people wonder what you have been doing

Your beautiful Seger will forever roam green pastures.

I am deeply sorry for your loss. A broken heart is the easiest thing to see, but the the heardest to heal. We are all here for you.

Why don’t you believe it?

did not ring true to me from the beginning, and I’m sorry, I think that much of her posting was to get attention/pity, and I feel uncomfortable with the amount of truth in them. Because of that, I am unwilling to blame the parents too much, as my gut feeling is that the relationship she portrayed may have been more fabrication on her part to further her objectives in posting. It is also possible that her folks just didn’t know enough to know when a horse is in trouble, and trusted their daughter to make the correct decisions. I would need to hear from someone close to the situation that it is as she stated. Touche, thanks for clarifying the facts relating to Seger’s death, it was very helpful.

A sixteen year old is quite capable of realizing when they are in trouble and ask for and accept help, which was offered in great quantities here. My feeling is that pride, and wanting the spotlight to shine a little longer on her, were somehow behind this. After all, we now know that she had at least one person close by that she could have called and didn’t. Her other interests were not put on hold to find a solution to this problem, so accepting her story that she did all she could doesn’t cut it with me.

We can’t forget that, as fun and helpful as these BBs can be, we can never be certain of who a person really is, and how much truth there is to a story, unless it can be verified by others in real time. I firmly believe this is one of those cases.

JMHO…

Laurie

I believe Cherry Upper was a gift to her, as was the pony.
So hopefully unless someone unsuspecting, “Gifts”, a horse to her, the parents won’t be buying a new horse.

Remember the father wanted to let Cherry Upper go because of how he looked.
From reading that both parents wanted to either give the horse away, or put him down it would seem that they knew something was wrong.
Like Touche noted, she had them bamboozled.
Which this board knows was pretty easy.

M-J…I’m very sorry you had to put your horse down, but I’ve been thinking about Segar all weekend. Why did a horse have to be euthanized because he was cast? This just seems a little too extreme for an exhausted horse. I’m sorry if this is out of line, I’m just entirely too confused here. Could you share the actual diagnosis that determined that he should be put down?

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you’re drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

Unfortunately, I think the only thing to come of this drama is that we will all be hard-pressed to become too overly involved with future situations. I realize that this is strictly a bulletin board community. But I for one would be worried about giving future advice to a minor. That is one of the reasons I did not jump on the sympathy band wagon as soon as I heard. It just didn’t sit right with me. While I have no way of proving anything regarding what did or did not happen, I can only go with what was presented to me in a public forum. This is a public forum and anything posted short of being Libelous is okay to comment on. This is a very unfortunate ending to a very unfortunate story. I feel sick, sick, sick about it. Where in god’s name where the parents during all of this? Did they actually leave a 16 year old to “deal” with such an adult problem? I am 34 years old and have had to make some really hard decisions regarding animals I own and they were absolutely the toughest things I have ever had to do. I don’t think as a 16 year old I could have. Not to take any responsibility away from her. Quite obviously she was not blind and could have, should have seen there was a problem…oh yeah, she did, she posted about it…ALOT!!! Did she do all she could have? Undoubtedly not. Can it be changed now? No. Am I bummed about it? You betcha! Do I think she should have another animal in her care? Nope, not til she is mature and financially capable of fending for them. I applaud everybody here who offered unsolicited advice. And who I know would have been there in a moment to help out. It is just a crying shame. Nuff said.

I, too, have IM’d Tiffany and been supportive of her struggles. The night Seger was put down, I talked to her online and tried to console her about it. When I asked what happened, she told me that she would “spare me the gruesome details,” which rang some alert bells in my head, but, out of compassion to her on the night her horse died, I didn’t press her. Every time I have spoken to her, she seems to be a horse lover in every sense of the word. I never would have suspected someone who seemed to possess so much knowledge and love of horses to be capable of letting one suffer like Seger did. It turns my stomach and is a brutal, in-your-face reminder that not everyone is always truthful online. Like Erin, I have never lied about anything serious on this board (Jokes are of another nature of course)- the thought has never crossed my mind. After all, all we may see on our screens are different, sometimes silly, screen names, but each and every screen name represents a real person. When people use the ambiguous nature of the internet abusively, it makes the whole community suspicious and more leery of getting involved. I hope this situation hasn’t affected all of us on the COTH BB that we can no longer trust each other and get involved in each other’s questions and concerns. That is, after all, the best thing about this board- everyone’s willingness to help a face he or she has never seen, to lend an ear to a person they have never met.