Sole bruise since Feb - what are your experiences with sole bruises?

[J-Lu]

Hello,

First, this is NOT MY HORSE.

8 year old fairly well bred QH ridden occasionally in an arena, turned out 24/7, wears front shoes. In Feb, horse went lame on rt. front foot. Horse had rest, even some stall rest, for 3-4 weeks. Still off on that foot. Vet #1 came out for radiographs and found nothing except for long toes and under-run heels. Thought his caudal sole was bruised. Recommended the farrier cut the toes way back (shared radiographs) and farrier did this and put pads in front. After a couple more weeks off, owner started riding again and went to w-t-c pretty quickly. Owner usually rides only on weekend and the work isn’t very hard, but the owner doesn’t have great feel for how to bring a horse back after extended time off. the owner is a big guy and weighs about 230 lbs (horse is about 15.3hh). After 2-3 weeks, the horse went lame again (the owner said the other foot but who knows). After 2 weeks of rest, horse was still lame and owner called vet #2 to get another opinion. Vet#2 thought the toes could come back a bit more and the heels really need to be built up, that there was soreness likely in the bulbs/ the flatter part of the heel. The pain blocked to the feet. Hoof testers from both vets and time seems to rule out abcesses.

The horse doesn’t overtrack and I suggested talking to the farrier about front shoes that extend a tad bit behind the heel for greater heel support. I’ve thought that the toe needed to come back some, and this has been dealt with. I don’t know if the collapsed heel is really due to the longer toe or just “quarter horse feet” or “this QH’s feet”. He’s on anti-inflammatories as per vet#2 (not bute).

Again, THIS IS NOT MY HORSE and I DON"T RIDE HIM.

Question: Does this seem like a long time for a bruised sole to heal? The owner did radiographs, which were negative for other findings. Hoof and sole appear to be OK (no flags from his farrier except he’s had front shoes, His heels are a bit collapsed but he’s shod every 4 weeks since the fall (the owner learned the hard way that every 8 weeks doesn’t work for this horse). I suggested a second farrier opinion since mine comes on Tuesday.

Has anyone experienced this and does the length of lameness on this horse fit what you know? The owner is not going to do more diagnostics and both vets feel confident that the horse is structurally OK and the pain localizes to the caudal frog/heel, ruling out tendons and the rest of the leg. Does anyone have advice/experience with this?

Thanks in advance!

[Redlei44]

Commenting specifically on sole bruises, they can take several months to come totally sound, IME. Three months for the last one I experienced. So yes, it’s possible, but it does also sound like there are some other things going on there.

[J-Lu]

@Redlei44

Commenting specifically on sole bruises, they can take several months to come totally sound, IME. Three months for the last one I experienced. So yes, it’s possible, but it does also sound like there are some other things going on there.

Thanks, @Redlei44 . Maybe this timeline is normal and he re-injured at some point? He is attached at the hip to the boss mare in his pasture and when she comes out, he runs the fenceline and calls to her (ignores the other horse in the pasture who says “but I’m still here!”). That probably hasn’t helped. We’re addressing that a bit this week by having him stand with other horses at the worlds sturdiest round pen during a week-long clinic. Day one he pawed and called all day. Day 2 and 3, he was silent and quiet while the mare came out for work and a ride out. Thank you for stating that sole bruises can take several months to heal. I’ll pass this on the owner, it will make him feel better.

[IPEsq]

They can take some time. Think about how long it takes for a bruise to even become visible on a white foot as it grows out. Especially if the cause of the bruising hasn’t been corrected (like with the right shoeing) and horse is exposed to footing (e.g. rocky) that might cause a new bruise (if, for example, the later lameness was the other foot).

[J-Lu]

Thanks!! @IPEsq , this horse lives in a very well maintained pasture (mown, dragged) and occasionally is ridden in a well maintained arena. I can’t imagine what he’s stepping on to make bruises. But your post makes very much sense.

FYI, I went to the barn this morning and had the random and fortuitous luck that the farrier was shoeing this exact horse when I got there. I’m good friends with the owner and know the farrier pretty well (I see him alot and I’ve held horses for him, he’s popped shoes back on mine, and he’s SUPER friendly and likes to impart knowledge). I thought I’d fill you in because I started this thread! Pretty much, the pastern angle is correct but the feet grow out more parallel to the ground - more pancakey. The tubules don’t match the pastern angle at all and the heels are very underrun. No response to hoof testers this time. The right foot had sores more lateral to the frog and the left foot (currently lame foot) has a sore in the sole closer to the toe. It was apparent when the farrier cut/rasped the sole so I guess it has grown out from the initial problem? Farrier thinks the horse puts weight in his toes when he stands and moves (I can see that with the way he’s built), and breakover leverage isn’t great for that horse. I asked about rolled shoes to help with the breakover and he said he already tried that with this horse but maybe could try again. He did extent the shoe a bit for more heel support. He didn’t think the heel was hitting the ground but that the horse’s soles were thin and the hooves and his forehand-ness/conformation weighted the toe/created a bit of a leverage problem. He’s shoeing the horse every 4 weeks to keep that in check. He puts web pads on under the shoes and then fills in the sole with a liquid gel that dries to support the sole. He rasped through the tubules to create a better angle in front-almost nothing was rasped from the heel. He thought it could take a month or more for the foot to correct enough/lameness to resolve (consistent with vet #2) and that this is just the way that this particular horse grows feet. He said that QHs he works on generally have good feet but this one doesn’t. He did say that months seem like a long time. He mentioned to the owner that he would not be offended if the owner got a second opinion, but I suspect the opinion would be similar. (That kind of speaks to how nice this guy is, he’s been shoeing for a long time and is also a Pastor). Turns out, the owner didn’t get a radiograph of this left foot, only the front right. The owner will give this horse the time the horse needs.

It was SO much more informative to talk to the farrier than the owner! But like I said, this farrier enjoys explaining things to people who want to learn and he explained much to me and showed me what he was talking about. I’m generally very geeky about learning new things from horse professionals and soak it in. The owner knows I’m a mental busy-body and learned from our conversation (for example, he didn’t know what rolled shoes were, what they do, and that they were previously applied. I know it was explained to him, but he probably forgot).

Does anyone have comments on what the farrier said? Have you had a horse/rode a horse that sounds similar? Any advice or experience you can add? Thanks!!! I 100% did not expect to run into the farrier working on this horse when I arrived!!!

[IPEsq]

Sounds like he put Equipak in. Was that pad the first time or his usual? Pancake feet are the worst to deal with as a farrier. Sounds like his approach overall is reasonable. Horse likely has thin soles. If he got bruised with pads on that would be unusual but sounds like he at least has them on now.

Only thing I wouldn’t agree with is not trimming the heels. You have to rasp/trim them to back them up where they belong or they will stay underrun.

Backing the toe up as much as the foot will allow (which on a pancake foot may not be much) is the only way to try to stay on top of the deformity, and it’s good to trim every 4 weeks.

My friend’s horse is a TB WB cross with pancake feet. Past farrier let him get too long. New farrier is better about it, and it’s making a difference. She also started feeding Tri Amino, and that seems to be helping him grow better quality horn so the feet aren’t collapsing so much.

In the past, I painted strong iodine on my platter footed TB, but unfortunately you can’t get it strong enough anymore. The farrier said it would toughen the foot and had me paint it on the soles and walls. That horse could look at a rock and get a bruise. That did help, and we used pads sometimes too depending on where we were going for shows. Probably would have done Equipak had that been available back then (the old pour ins were quite hard), because I lived in a wetter climate and so with plastic or leather pads it’s easy to get junk up under the pad that doesn’t help the problem.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Yes you have to trim underrun heels. The heels are there and they are too long. Instead of growing down they run forward fold under crush. Long toes and underrun heels also almost always come with thin soles.

I would also look at the diet for this horse. Pancake feet are a sign of weak laminar connection. Diet plays a giant role in that along with a proper balanced trim.
http://hoofrehab.com/Diet.html

[Marla_100]

Repeat; THE CLUE you said was the farrier hardly took anything off the heels. Redirecting the heels is a major CORRECTION that a
trimmer/farrier needs to understand how to do it and why.
It’s still part of the problem of “overgrown long toes and underrun heels”. It’s called “taking the heels BACK” to the proper angle where the heels will re-direct to the proper angle. Only thing I wouldn’t agree with is not trimming the heels. You have to rasp/trim them to back them up where they belong or they will stay underrun.
Only thing I wouldn’t agree with is not trimming the heels. You have to rasp/trim them to back them up where they belong or they will stay underrun.
You mUST do both, trim toes back and re-direct the heel angle otherwise you still have a weak, sore heel area, ie- lameness.

[J-Lu]

@IPEsq Pads are new, only 2-3 cycles. @BoyleHeightsKid The farrier may have rasped the heel, but not much. I once offered to analyze the diet of this horse, but they didn’t take me up on it and sort of change the diet frequently. I’ll mention it again, thanks. @Marla 100 , thanks!

Again, fortuitously and randomly, there’s a horse clinic at the barn. Horses were dropped off last weekend, the trainer and helpers rode them all week, and now the owners are here to learn on their horses. The owners consist of two sisters, one sister’s husband and their friend. Turns out the husband’s second career is a farrier (for 18 years), he and his wife bred, raised and trained horses for years, the friend is an equine vet, and the other sister is a retired scientist. The topic came up and I explained the situation to the farrier while the owner (who is the barn owner) was sort of walking and trotting his horse on the ground in the arena (we were all drinking beer and spiked seltzer in the breezeway at the end of the day, and the breezeway has full view of the arena), and this farrier suggested wedge shoes or bar shoes while watching the horse move. Everyone could see that the horse looked uncomfortable in the front end. Afterwards, we all sat around eating cheeses and elk meat, then grilling elk burgers (the clinic horse owners came from VA and PA and are camping in their trailers at the barn) (I really love my barn!). The conversation about sole bruising and feet came up with the owner and the farrier - I didn’t hear it but walked in at the tail end.

I’ll drop the question of taking down the heel in conversation when they both are there tomorrow. I suspect that the farrier already offered to look at the owner’s horse. There’s a lot of social time built into this clinic (dinner tomorrow, "cowboy breakfast Sunday) on top of the fact that everyone is staying at the barn, so lots of time to hang out and chat. Thanks!!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Wedges can make things worse unless used with DIM and a pad as to not add anymore heel pressure. Bar shoes… nope. No shoeing package is going to bring the heels and toes back without a proper trim first. A diet overhaul will help him grow a healthier foot with a stronger wall and laminar connection. You can’t trim or shoe your way to a healthy foot. That can only come from diet.

I wonder if anyone has thought of pulling shoes and putting him in Cloud boots or boots with pads. Cloud boots are wonderful and you can turnout and ride in them. This would allow for frequent trims and give the heels a chance to open up too. I bet they are contracted which contributes to thrush in the buttcrack at the back of the frog and leads to more soreness… ugh. He needs to feel comfortable enough to land at least flat. You really want them landing heel first so he can develop the back of the foot. Poor guy, I hope something happens for him. Kudos to you for trying.

[J-Lu]

Just posting back information! How fortuitous and timely for the owner of this horse that these people showed up for the clinic and camped at the barn!

The farrier offered to look at the horse. Turns out, his wife was a farrier, too, until early onset arthritis forced her to pick another career. Pretty much, they think that the shoe is too large, shaped wrong, set too far forward, and way too constricted in the heel. He thought the farrier was encouraging constriction, and he went into great deal of detail about the tubules, the angles, the shoe size and how all of that could affect this horse. He used the trainer’s hoof testers and angle measurement thingy. When the owner was putting the horse up, they were clear amongst themselves that the horse needed a different farrier and a more aggressive approach to this horse’s issues.

He suggested wedge shoes or bar shoes. @BoyleHeightsKid, he pointed out how the horse was standing, then resting various limbs, and what part of the foot was being weighted. He wanted to be camped out, behind the knee and on the heels to relieve the toes. The wedge shoes would lesson the tension on the flexor tendons and perhaps stop aggravating the bursa of the navicular bone until the feet were corrected. He worried about the tension on the tendons. Or, bar shoes would give the heels support which they don’t currently have. I asked about rasping the heels and he said he wouldn’t take anything off the heels, they were too collapsed. He pointed out that the rings showed something happened at around Feb and discussed any diet changes with the owners. He also suggested a coronet band treatment to stimulate hoof growth that I forgot but the owner wrote down.

He used his fingers to show that the horse was very sore in the back, which could be a cause of, a contributing factor, or a result of the feet.

Interestingly, the vet was also acupuncture/acupressure certified. She used a pen to assess acupressure points from ears to tail and concurred that the horse was super tight and uncomfortable in the cranial brachiocephalicus and omotransversarius, and splenius and throughout the back and croup. On the non-lame side especially. Also TMJ, which a body worker they had work on him in March concluded. They got his teeth done after that. She also tested pressure points on the hooves…tang points? It’s on the coronet band, the sides and front. He was sensitive on his lame foot (she didn’t know that was the lame foot). She suggested chiropractor work for the horse, but to get the feet taken care of first. Since the horse was just shod, I can’t see the owner doing much until 4 weeks from now but I hope he does. I’ll ask him about it tomorrow.

Even more interestingly, the farrier’s wife called the bloodlines of this horse by looking at him (they have bred lots of QHs and go to lots of sales). The owners pulled out his papers and she was right. I was pretty impressed. Amazed, actually.

I feel like I had a short master class in things to address in a chronically lame horse. So did the owner, he took notes.

[J-Lu]

Update! The owner consulted in person with my farrier today after he shod my horse.

My farrier nixed the wedge and bar shoes (as did the horse’s current farrier) (thought the horse in turnout would pull the bar shoes), and was not a fan of how the owner’s vet managed the angles of the radiograph. That said, the rationale for them was not explained by the owner. He said the horse needs (good) radiographs on both front feet to determine how to proceed. Probably needs shoes behind because he again showed how sore the horse was running his finger over the back and butt. The horse is quite sore. He thought the hocks might need attention. The owner will have my vet do the radiographs to assess for navicular changes and anything else, as my farrier gave his stamp of approval on her hoof radiographs and measurements. He couldn’t assess the front feet well because of the fill-in pads. He thought that in some circumstances, they could do more harm than good, so pushed for quality radiographs.

Just an update to round out the story in case anyone is interested. I’m quite fascinated with following this story, and am lucky enough to be present for professional evaluation.

[IPEsq]

Sometimes wedges only encouraged crushed heels to stay crushed. It’s a catch-22. Heel needs to be raised, but if you raise a heel with a wedge (shoe or pad), you might not get the hoof to correct if the reason he needs a wedge is the heels are crushed. This is why you’ve got to trim the heels to try to get them to grow in the right direction.

Some horses are not tolerant of pour ins but that may or may not be contributing to current discomfort. Usually the lameness is noticeably worse after application of pour ins if the horse is one too sensitive to tolerate that sole pressure. But the good thing about them is that if tolerated, they do more than other pad types to encourage sole growth.

Good radiographs would be helpful though for sure. If the front feet are significantly sore, it can cause a lot of problems elsewhere in the body, so I don’t know if I’d rush to back and hocks and stuff until the owner can get somewhere in the right direction with the front feet. Might as well also check angles behind while they xray the front.

[kashmere]

I am so super curious to see pictures of these feet!

When it comes to backing up heels, whether or not to actually trim the heels themselves depends on so many other factors. If you have a very run-forward foot with a too-low Palmar angle, you often can’t bring the heel back without also further lowering the PA, so the focus needs to remain on backing the toe as aggressively as possible to stop the cycle of the long toe pulling the heels forward. The health of the back of the foot - frog, digital cushion - also really needs to be considered. If you have a foot that could conceivably safely have the heels brought back to proper alignment, but a weak thrushy frog it’s often counterproductive to get the heels back to ideal if the horse isn’t willing to land on them due to pain from thrush. A heel rocker/heel slipper and a really strong bevel on the toe to bring it back as far as is reasonable, and then very frequent maintenance trims to stay ahead of the tendency to run forward is usually the best bet. Rads in this situation would be critical as sole depth and P3 position will be super informative.

It would also be interesting to see how the hoof grows about 1 inch down from the coronary band and whether there is an indication that it is trying to grow in a better angle but is flaring out due to weak lamellar connection lower down in the hoof. Probably this would be caused by diet and would be exacerbated by lever forces on the flared wall at ground level plus any toe-first movement.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@kashmere

I am so super curious to see pictures of these feet!

When it comes to backing up heels, whether or not to actually trim the heels themselves depends on so many other factors. If you have a very run-forward foot with a too-low Palmar angle, you often can’t bring the heel back without also further lowering the PA, so the focus needs to remain on backing the toe as aggressively as possible to stop the cycle of the long toe pulling the heels forward. The health of the back of the foot - frog, digital cushion - also really needs to be considered. If you have a foot that could conceivably safely have the heels brought back to proper alignment, but a weak thrushy frog it’s often counterproductive to get the heels back to ideal if the horse isn’t willing to land on them due to pain from thrush. A heel rocker/heel slipper and a really strong bevel on the toe to bring it back as far as is reasonable, and then very frequent maintenance trims to stay ahead of the tendency to run forward is usually the best bet. Rads in this situation would be critical as sole depth and P3 position will be super informative.

It would also be interesting to see how the hoof grows about 1 inch down from the coronary band and whether there is an indication that it is trying to grow in a better angle but is flaring out due to weak lamellar connection lower down in the hoof. Probably this would be caused by diet and would be exacerbated by lever forces on the flared wall at ground level plus any toe-first movement.

These feet sound like they really need to be out of shoes and in Cloud boots to rehab the feet. Poor guy sounds like his feet really have him jacked up.

[kashmere]

@BoyleHeightsKid

These feet sound like they really need to be out of shoes and in Cloud boots to rehab the feet. Poor guy sounds like his feet really have him jacked up.

Boots and pads - or casting, composite glue-ons (with or without nails for extra help pending wall health), etc. would be my choice, too. Definitely boots would let you play around with what type of padding makes him the most comfortable which you could then translate to a more stable/less maintenance set up like a cast or composite shoe with padding. I’ve got a rehab currently who was stalled for almost a year with max 15 mins of turnout time 1x a day if he was lucky. Being able to fiddle around with various pad configurations in real time and watch his gait and posture for comfort has been invaluable.

[J-Lu]

Thanks, @kashmere and @BoyleHeightsKid and @IPEsq . Are you all farriers? I appreciate your comments and I’ve learned much, I’ll update when the vet takes radiographs. Jury is out on the actual sole thickness right now. Glue-ons don’t seem to be in the cards because the hoof wall is good and the horse holds shoes fine. Poor guy!

[IPEsq]

I’m not a farrier but have had enough horses who needed designer shoes …

[kashmere]

@J-Lu Not a farrier, here! And not a pro HCP. I do trim my own horses. Started on the trimming path with my little mare who had a navicular diagnosis and am now on my second and third rehab cases. Have learned a lot over the few years I’ve been doing it and have tons more to learn! One thing I’ve really learned to appreciate for the rehab process is how flexible you can be to experiment with boots and padding to see what makes the horse comfortable, and how easy (relative to a shoe) it is to change things up as the foot changes. It’s also really beneficial, with a thin-soled horse, to be able to make adjustments in balance and movement via padding and creative boot modifications while still being really conservative with your trim. That’s not to say nailed-on shoes can’t do the same stuff, but obviously as a non-farrier I don’t nail anything anywhere :lol: and I do really appreciate how agile you can be with the less-permanent applications of boots, padding, casting, etc.

I hope this little horse starts feeling better soon! If the heels are crushed in the hinds as well, there’s a very good chance the horse has NPA, which can be a cause or significant contributor to that tight/sore back and bum.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@J-Lu I am not a farrier but have been around enough and seen enough and have rehabbed my own horse who was once crippled without shoes. He had the typical “crappy TB feet” and now happily runs around in turnout barefoot. I still boot him for riding but I’ve brought him so far in the last year I no longer believe in the crappy TB foot. I know what this little guys feet look like without seeing pictures. I see it so much, especially around here.