Solo turnout for the kicker? WWYD?

[SugarCubes]

I have two geldings and a bossy mare at my place. My mare is generally a very fair herd leader but is quick with her hind end when the boys don’t get out of her way fast enough. She ended up nailing one of the boys yesterday BADLY, right in the hip and stifle. Vet was concerned we were dealing with a fractured femur or pelvis given the fact he was completely non-weightbearing. Thank god the x-rays didn’t show anything glaringly obvious, so he’s on stall rest for a few weeks and we’re hoping for the best.

I am now obviously concerned about the likelihood of her injuring another pasture-mate and am wondering if it would be wise to turn her out alone from here on out. I’m not exactly set up to do that, but can certainly adjust fence-lines to make it work if need be.

DH thinks I’m being overly protective, given this is the first time this has happened, and “horses can be horses”. Soooo COTH, WWYD? Take it as a freak thing, or take more precautions?

All three are barefoot behind, FYI

[lenapesadie]

Jingles for a quick recovery for your gelding.

I probably would want to watch the horses closely to see if I could identify any trigger events or circumstances that lead to kicking episodes. If I was able to identify something I could alter to reduce kicking episodes, I would try that first. If after reviewing the situation, I determined that mare is a regular kicking threat I would strongly consider solo turn out. Vet bills are expensive.

[trubandloki]

Does your group turn out include places where a horse can easily get cornered and not be able to get away from the kicker?

I think my answer to your original question is dependent on the answer to this question.

[cayuse]

I you can do it, I’d probably go with separate turnout for her from now on. Like the saying goes, she showed you her true colors, believe her. Jingles for your gelding, hope he’s on the mend.

[Bluey]

Our old vet used to tell us that he wished horse owners would quit thinking horses in smaller spaces need to live together.
Insisting on that he said is why he spends half his time attending to horses another one, sooner or later, injured in horse play or fights.
Very few horses made to share space with other/s will not, at some time, have their differences.
Across a fence they can still get injured, but way, way less than where they can’t get away from each other.

I would not put a horse that is known to play hard or that shows aggression with others.
Why turn her out again with them, repeat the same situation and expect similar won’t happen?

We have always pastured our horses in herds, but they had mile long pastures.
Even then, they would come in the pens to drink and be fed and some time have a problem.
Once some geldings were lined along the fence taking a nap.
This one youngster woke up first and reached over and bit an old horse right in the eye!
Vet was there right away and we were lucky that horse didn’t lose his eye.
Sadly, we didn’t learn, kept insisting horses had to get along and live in their herds, only the badly aggressive ones were sold to individual homes.

Decades later now I wish we had considered maybe our old vet was right and be more proactive.
Our horses may have been more at peace and happier without needing to boss others or being bossed.

[LilRanger]

I would separate. I’ve seen life ending injuries with kickers. One was a gelding with a shattered jaw. Sharing a fence line is just a better option.

I do agree you want to know what if anything triggers it, but will you realistically be there when it happens? A human presence changes the dynamic.

[S1969]

@trubandloki

Does your group turn out include places where a horse can easily get cornered and not be able to get away from the kicker?

I think my answer to your original question is dependent on the answer to this question.

Agree with this. Also curious how long these three have lived together without incident.

My opinion would be different if it was 8 months versus 8 years.

My herd of 3 full sized mares, one small pony gelding and one ancient mini mare live together very peacefully, and have done for more than a decade. As in - not one incident of injury caused by a horse. So, if something happened tomorrow, I would consider it a strange freak event that probably had an underlying cause (someone is sick, something external was a cause, somehow a gate was closed creating a “trap” of some sort, etc.)

[XXS]

Is there enough space, food places, no dangerous corners? If the mare shows fair signs of body language I’d call this bad luck. If this mare is a bully that kicks repeatedly, I’d separate her. (I saw severe injuries even in ‘perfect pasture conditions’ - but the one who pays the vet bills is the one to decide if something is overprotective or not).

[NaturallyHappy]

I agree. Your poor gelding is hurt, and if I understood correctly, the extent of his injury is not yet clear. I’d separate her in a New York minute.

[luvmyhackney]

Depends on so many factors. How big are the pastures and was the mare fair with her punishment? Geldings can be persistent and not take no for an answer. Did she warn appropriately?

If smaller pastures, I would separate.

[SugarCubes]

Thanks for all of the quick responses! I think it’s pretty clear she needs to have private turnout. She is the type who can be lovey-dovey, grooming on one of the boys one second, then decides she’s over it and turns and kicks at him.

Their summer pasture is 5 acres, with lots of space to get away, but in the winter they’re in a 2 acre paddock, and yes, while they could utilize the entire space, they tend to congregate in the dry lot near the barn in a smaller area.

Private turn out it is! Thanks all…

[Bluey]

@SugarCubes

Thanks for all of the quick responses! I think it’s pretty clear she needs to have private turnout. She is the type who can be lovey-dovey, grooming on one of the boys one second, then decides she’s over it and turns and kicks at him.

Their summer pasture is 5 acres, with lots of space to get away, but in the winter they’re in a 2 acre paddock, and yes, while they could utilize the entire space, they tend to congregate in the dry lot near the barn in a smaller area.

Private turn out it is! Thanks all…

I think it hurts our sense of how horses should act and be happy more than most horses really care if they are in the same space with other horses, as long as there are others somewhere around.
Some horses even love the quiet of not having to make underlings mind and some of not being bossed around.

You can always change your mind if you feel at some time she may have changed, or the situation did, as horses do change with the circumstances.

Hope your gelding will get well soon.

[candyappy]

I would separate them when you are just using the Winter 2 acre set up. So many things change when the area is small and food is something to compete over. Even if you have a round bale out or put out many separate piles, it still can be an issue.

No reason why they can’t all be together when you have grass on the 5 acres.

In the Spring-late Fall I dry lot my mares at night but leave my gelding out for just this reason, or he has his own pen w/ shelter adjoining theirs for nights if needed.

[stb]

I think you are doing the right thing by separating her. You have had your warning, and it sounds like your gelding got lucky and didn’t receive a permanent injury. Just think how you would feel if you put them back together and someone got hurt even worse.

[Posting_Trot]

You’re doing the right thing in separating her. My mare sounds similar–loves, loves, loves all of the other horses right up until she doesn’t.

She’s in her own paddock (half an acre) that is adjacent to other horses. They all hang out together across the fence, occasionally groom each other, and occasionally make nasty faces at each other. But so far, it’s been a way safer experience.

[4horses]

I keep my horses all in individual turnout, most of the time. If out in the big pasture they are sometimes turned out together. Certain horses are not very herd friendly.

I have horses of different ages so for feeding purposes, it’s easier to keep everyone separated. The old mare needs extra feedings and the easy keeper doesn’t need more food.

[Equisis]

I’m in the “separate them” camp. Best case scenario is that it was a one-off, but given that she has already demonstrated a quickness with her hind end, I would bank on her doing it again. She has already injured one of the geldings, seriously enough- don’t give her the opportunity to do it again.

[quietann]

Sounds like a good decision.

My mare is one who kicks with no warning if any horse gets too close to her hay. And she has shoes on her hind hooves (as well as the front ones). Individual turnout with over-the-fence buddies suits her just fine, as long as the hay is not right by the fence line.

[Caligirl83]

@SugarCubes you made the right decision. Agree with everything everybody said above.

We have a mare that killed my old 24yo stud who was gelded at 15. It was the most bizarre freak accident the vets had ever seen… and in 35+ years of keeping horses I’ve seen every kind of housing situation so I thought I understood horse behavior, I thought I had introduced them all slowly and gradually, I thought I understood the herd dynamics… but in hindsight I should have known better.

It happened while I was out of a town at a conference (of course) … basically the mare had a bad day at work (she bucked off a hired guy twice, straight into a barbed wire fence). I guess when they got back they put the mare in with the old gelding (since I was more worried about him fighting with a more food aggressive gelding who had back shoes, I had left instructions that he could do with the mare).

Anyway I guess she was so angry at anything male (and he was the lovey dovey goofy I’m so excited to see you I’m going to flirt and touch you all over your neck kind of personality with other horses) that he must have greeted her a little too hard and she pinned him against a fence and screamed and kicked him repeatedly and hit his erect penis. My staff didn’t tell me about the accident (he had a thick blanket on so there were no hematomas or marks on him) but apparently he was peeing blood for 2 days and eventually got a blood clot stuck in his urethra and ruptured his bladder. By the time I saw him 2 days after the injury I was ready to fire all of the staff (they were men, so they kept saying that they often had injuries which resulted in urinating blood and lived to tell the tale) but the gelding was in horrible pain induced colic and I wanted to euthanize him there & then. But I took him to the vet clinic hospital and at least got him painkillers & antibiotics and gave him a fighting chance but essentially he was DOA. At least he was stabled next to a mare with a sick foal and he even whinnied at a little chestnut Arab mare the last time I hand walked him before euthanasia so his last memories were pleasant. It was one of the most traumatic things that’s happened to me in my equestrian career, and I’ve seen a lot of tragedies.

Fast forward 2 years later… we bring in a young 4yo Thoroughbred gelding as a sales horse and it takes the mare longer (about a year) to find the right moment but I happened to be right there and she pinned the 4yo against a pipe corral and gave the same scream and tried to kick the sh*t out of him. Needless to say I disciplined her but will never trust her again nor put another gelding in her reach, even though she’s fine with her 24yo boyfriend gelding who is food aggressive and the 21yo beta gelding. Luckily we have 130 acres of rotated pasture… but it’s apparently still not enough room.

[NaturallyHappy]

I’m so sorry.