I have had a horse sufferng for a LONG time. I use two different vet clinics for my horses. One is standard equine vet, the other a more holistic approach. Neither one EVEN came close to what this thread has. The only relief I saw for my guy was to put him to sleep.
I am a fairly educated horse owner…and I research ALOT before I jump on any band wagon. I also, do trust a lot of members advise here. The ones on this thread have been here for quite some time and they have tested and proven this particular “cure” to work. No, they are not DVMs but they are very educated horse folks with lots and lots of experience.
I actullay have an appt with one of my vets in a few weeks. I plan to tell him of my doings. And I bet I will teach 'em something new!
Oh, and the old guy who was suffering so badly before is a totally different horse. Will probably live to see another 26 years!. I have said it before…this thread saved his life! :yes:
Is the dermatitis, itching and discomfort a side effect of the worms leaving or from the double dose? If the side effects come from the high doseage, are there other drugs that will kill the bugs and not produce the side effects?
The itchiness/dermatitis is caused by the little beasties traveling around, under the skin. Your typical deworming program kills off some (creating the lumps) but not all.
This is how I’ve grasped the whole thing. I could be wrong, but hopefully, some of it makes sense:
[INDENT]The high dose ivermectin/praziquantel kills off much higher numbers than a single dose, and drives them “out”. The actual microfilarae (?) are super, super tiny - as witnessed by the image of one exiting the antenna of a black fly. But when they die, the horse’s body creates a very small mass around the dead thing. Everyone’s body creates pockets around all manner of bad things in our bodies. So these little bumps are actually abscesses. The horse scratches the itchies, spreading the goop around, yada yada.
There is the thought that many people underdose their horses (I finally taped my horses and discovered I was.) and therefore we never really kill off everything. (I never thought it was possible to kill all internal parasites… but I never thought about doing a weekly or twice monthly deworming either.)
[/INDENT]Meaty Ogre posted 2 links to articles about using Moxidectin to kill onchocerca. Apparently, using Moxi does not create the intense itchiness that the ivermectin/praziquantel does. However, it’s not adviseable to use really high doses of Moxidectin. (It has a lower threshold of safety margin).
If you prefer to not double dose right away - you can do this as a weekly ivermectin regime. It seems to take longer (witness Cashela’s posts).
I too was somewhat afraid of DD Equimax. So I used 1 ivermectin and 1 Equimax, then 2 weeks later, DD Equimax, then, on the 2 horses that originally had bumps, crusties, and rubbed tails, I used single ivermectin a week later. They appear to be doing MUCH better and the rescue has had some open spots as a result of this dosing. He may be in for further treatment.
I have used Quest and Quest+ on my horses - even the rescue - in the 10 months prior to this. So I think that I may have reduced the numbers in previous dewormings; therefore, none of my 3 horses had super high NTW loads but I’m sure that 2 of them did have them in large numbers. None of my 3 ever did the intense scratching that so many others have written about.
OK, Ms Mare had her first DD EM on 9/2, due for her second today. In two weeks her face has improved dramatically - almost all the hair has grown back. She has had numerous welts pop up on her neck and some in other places as well - dab on some ichthammol and mostly gone by the next day. She seems less itchy . . . So far, so good!
Had second DD two weeks ago tomorrow. Had a set back with hair on her face - although it is improving again. Still have lumps and bumps appearing on her neck which seem to get better after dabbing with ichthammol. Might try the DD of invermectin this weekend . . .
Gabz, I started out with one horse getting a DD of Equimax and one getting a DD of Ivermectin(cause I didn’t have any more Equimax), then two weeks later I DD’d both again with Equimax. A week after that, I did a single dose of Ivermectin. I can’t recall when Kit had the big reaction on her butt, I’ll have to go back and re-read my own posts, but it seems like I got the most reaction after the second DD dose of Equimax and the single dose of ivermectin.
I just couldn’t bring myself to DD poor Kit again. But will give another dose of ivermectin to both tomorrow.
Cashela - I apologize for mis-speaking… I know you were very worried about the large doses and I must have mixed you up with another poster.
I’m sorry… I know there were several of us with some reservations of doing the initial DD E’max.
I know - I KNOW… I wanna spread sheet … wahhhhh… :eek:
I’m just so… profoundly amazed at all of this … I think so many other horse owners would be amazed at results. My horses weren’t horribly “infested” as some other horses that have suffered for years from this itch problem - but just knowing that what I thought were scars … that disappeared… ugh… and I think I am seeing a more relaxed horse (the rescue) … just want to give it time to be sure that’s what helped him.
And… I was the one that thought overdosing was a terrible thing to do because I was more afraid of huge die-off … but I’m “seeing the light” (where’s the lightbulb?) … and I understand those who are hesitant to experiment.
I would also like to see the 1.5x anthelcide more publicized by the manufacturer…
The dosage of oxibendazole is 10 mg/kg (2.2 lb) of body weight (15 mg/kg for strongyloides).
The strongyloides are not the onchocerca microfilariae we have been talking about here, right?
As an aside - anyone know why the US doesn’t have abametcin products? Or at least, none that I can find? Seems common in the UK. Resistance issues here?
Okay. I’m the one that’s whacked (again)… intestinal threadworms/ strongyloides are only a problem in foals. Not mature horses. So there’s no reason to need 1.5x Anthelcide in a mature horse then.
Wonder why mature horses are not prone to this? Sorry to get off topic.
people DO report adult horses with ascarids in their fecals. Actually fairly often. So you wonder, did this happen because the horse was not dewormed correctly as a foal? Or… is our info on ascarids not correct?
I just know that I am really glad I have been secretly carrying on my own war against worms… I think it is probably a bigger factor than I ever even suspected.
I’m fairly certain the immunity here is the body’s response to the presence of the parasite which kills it. Hence, no ascarids, even though the horse may be exposed to them.
The immunity, when it does develop, is apparently very age related - 18-24 months of age. This seems to correlate to the overall development of the immune system in genera.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;3519948]
I apologize if this question was already addressed, but are all of you who are doing this double dose twice in two weeks protocol all doing it because of the symptoms your horse has, or is this something that is being recommended for all horses? My horses all have lovely coats and no skin problems. Does that mean they do not need a double equimax twice? I do have equimax as part of my rotaion but only in a single dose if that matters. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
I have been following this thread for a few weeks now and am wondering the same thing as Laurie: If a horse has practically no symptoms, what protocol is suggest a) for this DD thingy, and b) for continued worming?
Thank you for posting your results, this is very interesting.
Sorry I don’t have my barn book here to give exact dates and so forth. Will do a better write-up soon.
In general I’m now up to where a few animals have the second double dose. I did not observe much reaction to the first double dose but now with the second I’m seeing some things. I don’t have any of the srtange lumps and bumps reported by some others but I do have one mare that has the huge “dandruff” thing going on. The entire inside of her ears is flaking along with the skin under her mane.
I think I’m seeing intensified itching on some following second double dose but again it’s not like they are just frantic to rub. I have seen them completely obssessed with the need to find a tree to rub on in the past. The current rubbing is not that frantic.
Need to get to the farm and dole out some more double doses.
(where’s the lightbulb?) … and I understand those who are hesitant to experiment.
