something to kill adult Onchocerca? 19 CASE STUDIES POSTED-PAGE 58

[Painted_Horse]

As I mentioned a day or two ago, The product information sheet that comes in the box of EW states:

“Swelling and itching reactions after treatment with ivermectin paste have occured in horses carrying heavy infections of neck threadworm (Onchocera sp. microfilariae) These reactions were most likely the result of microfilariae dying in large numbers.”

That to me seems to indicate that the Ivermectin is the effective drug on the Onchocera and not the praziquantel. It would be more econmomical to buy just a straight ivermectin paste if that is the parasite that you are targeting.

[mhtokay]

I was fascinated after reading the whole thread about a week ago. I have 3 horses that showed possible symptoms. I had 6 tubes of ivermectin on hand so used that to double dose those 3 and ordered the Equimax.

First mare (QH) is one I bought in March pregnant. She foaled first of May, rebred early June. I’ve struggled all summer to put weight on her and deal with her apparent reactions to bugs. I had her (actually, everyone) on Bug Check, Power Pac shortly after foaling, Omegafield’s Horse shine, strategy feed, pasture, alfalfa (as she’s a picky thing), access to a stall with a ceiling fan to help with the flies, teeth done before foaling, etc. lately added diatomaceous earth. She came from TX… big outfit and I’m in PA. So she should have been in heaven, according to her previous owner. She has had pretty constant fly bite looking bumps over neck and shoulders… and some loss of hair on some of the bumps. A dandruffy look to those areas and dandruff in her mane. No tail or mane rubbing. A sweet itch spot on her belly, and some of the wrinkles on her neck. It’s been 8 days since the DD Ivermectin and the belly spot cleared up within a couple days. I can’t say the bumps have changed. I’ve caught her scratching her neck. I’m anxious to try the DD of Equmax… but should probably wait another week? Weaned kid about 2 weeks ago.

2nd mare (arab) only symptom was rubbing her tail all summer since late April. she’s pregnant, bred March 1st. she was coming in the barn during the day once it go hot, as I don’t have sheds enough for them all to share well when it’s really miserable. She had no sweet itch spot and no rubbed mane. As i wasn’t showing her, i didn’t do much to her tail other than wash out her udder, MTG a couple times and an occasional wash with micro-tech. No change. she’s out all the time now doesn’t seem to rub anymore, but holds her tail a little crooked all the time and loves it if i scratch it. No change since DD ivermectin. I’ll wait another week to DD the equimax, since she’s pregnant. err a little on the side of caution.

3rd gelding has a few of those raised hard lumps, which i think are those wormy things. The last year or 2 he’s gotten a few and they leave in the fall. he got the DD Ivermectin and I even put some icthamol on the lumps but no change in 8 days. He did have a couple break outs this year above his tail… kind of heavy crusty looking that i could pick off, no itching, I put MTG on it the first time and the hair grew back in. I’m wondering if it might have been some sort of break thru of the NTWs. I’m tempted to give him his DD equimax now, since he’s not pregnant LOL. It’s getting to the time of year when most of this is generally resolved anyway.

Now on Thursday I treated 5 adult horses with the DD equimax… using the weight tape to determine amount. I had loose manure in 2 of them after 2 days or so. One had a sweet itch spot on her belly which got much bigger and crustier after a couple days. All of these horses are out all the time and getting good pasture. I even treated the 3 oldest weanlings… about 5 months. Probably didn’t need to. no loose manure, no itchies. 2 had runny eyes before then they got clear… might not be related. I’m not going to DD the weanlings again. I’d begun diatomateous earth and will continue that again… and do some fecals. Normally I worm babies monthly for the first year, but might rely on fecals to not overdo… we’ll see. I have to learn how to do them first! LOL.

[gabz]

Hydroxyzine.

SSLandon - are the horses on the Hydroxyzine at this time? Is your vet concerned about the DD Equimax while they are taking Hydroxyzine?

And which is it you are questioning for USEF? Hydroxyzine or the Equimax?

Equimax is ivermectin + Praziquantel. Praziquantel is used to kill tapeworms.

[Lieslot]

WORD OF CAUTION “PLEASE” SPEAK TO YOUR VET BEFORE DD EQUIMAX!!!

So I’ve been up all night after DD Equimax! Had to have emergency vet out in the middle of the night.
Horse at present okay again, other then some mild diahhrea but things looking up!
Symptoms were general distress, pacing up & down, sweating, veins up, heartrate up, not eating/drinking, no interest in threats, heaves, labored breathing, nasal discharge, not pawing or looking at belly however, normal gut sounds, normal rectal, no body itch. Horse did want to lay down once in stall. This happened about 9 to 10hrs after DD Equimax on a previously (assumingly) healthy horse. Symptoms may have started earlier, I was not at home before that.

Vet raised a serious eyebrow at my DD + a little extra (to cover possible wastage) Equimax on a horse that only weeks ago had Quest and prior to that Quest Plus and Powerpacked early in the year!
As per vet’s instruction, no more deworming at present, first fecals in two weeks time and based upon results vet will tell me what to do.

And my girth lumps are just girth sores, leave it at that and told me to stop worrying about neck threadworm, no ‘obvious’ signs of any of this in my guys and certainly not based on their recent de-worming schedules. And if I am concerned about NTW, she suggested a biopsy and based upon that take action.

PS, horse is a tummy sensitive fella in general, any change in food, hay, etc, needs to be introduced slowly, so not sure if going over the top with my de-wormer may have caused this, I am “not” saying it did, it may be purely coincidental!!, but nevertheless wished to share this so people consult with their vet before doing something other then regular routines on their horses.

[EqTrainer]

Of course colicy symptoms from a die-off are always a possibility. I am sorry that you experienced it; I never have, but I have been told it does happen.

It’s just like when people Powerpack and the horse has a big die off and gets colicy… well, now the worms are dead, and that’s good…

and sometimes horses just do colic, regardless of when they have been dewormed, 9 hours, 9 days, 9 months…

please don’t think I am dismissing what happened, I am not… and letting your vet know what you are up to is always a good idea

[JB]

@Ghazzu;3532259

I’m curious as to why praziquantel enters into the equation at all, as it is used to treat infestations of cestodes and trematodes, and Onchocerca spp. are nematodes.

I don’t know and I’m not sure others on this thread do, other than that some have experienced (better?) results with the combo than with just regular ivermectin (even at a dd)

[quote=Painted Horse;3532379]As I mentioned a day or two ago, The product information sheet that comes in the box of EW states:

“Swelling and itching reactions after treatment with ivermectin paste have occured in horses carrying heavy infections of neck threadworm (Onchocera sp. microfilariae) These reactions were most likely the result of microfilariae dying in large numbers.”

That to me seems to indicate that the Ivermectin is the effective drug on the Onchocera and not the praziquantel. It would be more econmomical to buy just a straight ivermectin paste if that is the parasite that you are targeting.
[/quote]

It would seem to indicate that, yes, but see my reply to Ghazzu above I don’t know, honestly, I’m just looking at what people are reporting. Certain there are folks on this thread who have gotten results with “just” a dd of ivermectin.

[WeDoItAll]

More Updated Photos

I haven’t yet tried to remove the worm (for lack of better term). There doesn’t appear to be as much sticking out now as originally. I can tell you that some of the hard horn-type material on her legs is starting to come off (these have been there for years, and did occasionally shed off – I didn’t notice previously a correlation of de-worming/shedding off of this stuff).

I added two photos to the album, one is a more clear shot of the opening and alien object. The second is from the back towards the front so you can see the size of this lump even over and above the swelling of the entire leg.

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=246079742/PictureID=5826651201/a=7157757_7157757/t_=7157757

Interested in your thoughts …

[Lieslot]

EqT, true, it may not be related to the DD and be for a complete different reason, change of temps or other…
My gutfeeling makes me think I overdid it on the de-wormer, (he got a dose over 3500lbs), and he’s a rather sensitive fella. I doubt he got an massive die off of worms, this year they both got dewormed more then standardly recommended and up to a weight of 2000lbs and he is definitely not 2000lbs.

If the horse has symptoms of NTW then definitely look into de-worming, but I feel like I turned into a hypochondriac and started seeing things that weren’t there and most likely a single dose ivermectin at my next de-worming date would have been a little more cautious for this particular horse.
Maybe having to get your de-wormer from your vet as in some European countries isn’t all that bad after all.
I used to think that was nuts, but now this seems to make sense to me.

[Cashela]

So no reactions from the girls on this last single dose of Ivermectin. Crick still has two hard lumps on her flank. I think I will do one more single dose this week and I think we are all set.

[mybeau1999]

Ok… I’m another one who has been stalking this thread, in a good way also, for a while. I was set on doing the DD of equimax on him when he moved to our house so I could keep a closer eye on him, can’t do that at the boarding barn:no:.

But after reading the trouble that Lieslot had I’m very nervous. My guy does have allergic reactions to his spring vaccs, but he’s straightened out with a shot of banamine. My mom (she doesn’t have a ton of experience with horses) said to ask the vet about the NTWs. But like all you guys were saying - they might write it off as something else.

He doesn’t have BAD symptoms, just mild. He has a swollen right front fetlock pretty much all the time. Never really caused any lameness, the vet had me give him chondroprotec shots every month for a year to help them. He has what I always thought were fly bites on his chest all summer.
And he’s not immensely itchy, but he itches his neck all the time on the sides of his dutch door window. I want to deworm him for NTWs as a precaution anyway, even if he doesn’t have them.

So, should I just ask my vet (the new one I will be using when he moves to our house, the boarding vet won’t come out here)? Did you guys all ask a vet, or just DD your horses?
Would doing the DDs with Ivermectin be less aggressive than DDs with Equimax? Should I do that since off his allergies to vaccs, or are these 2 situations totally unrelated?

Thanks:)

[3Spots]

I wasn’t sure from Lieslot message as to whether she DD’d with Equimax or did 3x. She mentioned a dosage appropriate for 3500 lbs which would be a DD for a 1700 lb horse. If she only has a 1200 lb horse, then it seems it was closer to 3x.

That said, I think the safety of the wormer would still cover for that, but if he had a sensitve stomach, I would not be surprised that he has some reaction.

I did the DD without checking with my vet. But I did a 1.5x Ivermectin about a month before “just to be safe.” I was more worried about a worm dieoff than sensitive stomach, so I wanted to kill as many of them first before the DD.

I had no effect from the first DD. From the second, now a week later, his hard/horny midline area has started to peel and he got a lot of “bug bites” near his belly button. The horny tisse on the midline has not gone away, but it is definitely softer and thinner, it almost can be wrinkled like normal skin. If it doesn’t continue to clear up this week, I’ll consider one more single dose ivermectin next week and then probably stop and go into his regular worming schedule.

You need to do what you are comfortable with. It is a good thing Lieslot posted, because I think it will stimulate people to think and understand what this thread is suggesting.

jan

[Ghazzu]

My take on this is that I would find it hard to justify the risk, albeit small, of adverse reactions to an excessive dose of praziquantel when there is no evidence that it is even having an effect on the target organism. YMMV.

[mybeau1999]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3533287]
My take on this is that I would find it hard to justify the risk, albeit small, of adverse reactions to an excessive dose of praziquantel when there is no evidence that it is even having an effect on the target organism. YMMV.[/QUOTE]

So do you think it would be best to just double dose generic ivermectin?

[Ghazzu]

@mybeau1999;3533317

So do you think it would be best to just double dose generic ivermectin?

I suspect it would be adequate to dose ivermectin at the normal level, if the goal is to eliminate microfilaria.

[EqTrainer]

The only issue there I see is that I routinely double dose Ivermectin. In fact, I don’t think I ever do a single anymore, on any horse. That partially began because I have big horses, and because they do waste, and Ivermectin is cheap. Then I started seeing clear positive changes and thought well, hell… ok… logically if I am seeing those changes in the rehab horses but my own horses who I have had for years, do not show a big change, then there must be a wormload issue that is finally being addressed for those horses by doing it this way. Sorry for the run-on sentence but it’s a run-on thought!

BUT… the horses who come here w/the skin creepies… it is not until I did a double of Equimax that their issues would go away. NOW… I am still following that up with those horses with double Ivermectin on a short cycle.

It certainly confuses things but I don’t know how to separate out the issues without doing something I am uncomfortable with - which would be NOT deworming heavily a horse who had the usual suspects.

It does sound like maybe Lieslots horse got a triple dose? How big is he, Leislot?

[mybeau1999]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3533366]
I suspect it would be adequate to dose ivermectin at the normal level, if the goal is to eliminate microfilaria.[/QUOTE]

Will that kill adults too? Or just the larvae?

I thought it was the DD Equimax followed in 2 weeks by another DD that got the adults. But if praz. isn’t what’s killing them, Iver. works.
I’m just stuck on whether to double or not:confused:

[LMH]

None of the dewormers kill adults (the NTW adults that is)

[Ghazzu]

@mybeau1999;3533374

Will that kill adults too? Or just the larvae?

I thought it was the DD Equimax followed in 2 weeks by another DD that got the adults. But if praz. isn’t what’s killing them, Iver. works.
I’m just stuck on whether to double or not:confused:

To the best of my knowledge, there is no documentation on any agent, other than intralesional formalin, that will kill the adults.
(Ivermectin at the labelled dose will, however, sterilize the adults)

That said, I would not be at all surprised if a higher dose of ivermectin might kill adults.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that praziquantel has any effects on either microfilaria or adults.

[mybeau1999]

[QUOTE=LMH;3533388]
None of the dewormers kill adults (the NTW adults that is)[/QUOTE]

Oh, so you can’t get rid of them, until they die naturally? You can just stop the next generation of larvae…
Hmmm… I read someone’s post wrong then, I thought you could get those dang adults.
Do you suggest doing a single or double iver. for them?

[LMH]

Ghazzu does it PERMANENTLY sterilize the adults? I thought I read somewhere it just stuns them-so they could reproduce again later on.

But I may have totally made that up in my head!