It is hard to dispute, IMO, the data of over 60 people. With multiple horses. My control group is hovering around 40 horses right now. Few studies on anything involving horses has 100 horses participating in it!
Not to mention, I think it’s cool that I finally have a probably answer to why I don’t have skin issues out here, in spite of living in a near tropic environment w/horses who live out 24/7.
Re: the foal who was coughing? Round worms migrate into the lungs.
SSFLlandon - Try Marquis or Navigator. You said in another thread that you were using SMZ and the malarial drugs to treat EPM? Did your vet advise you to do that, too?
Yes, my vet and I have spoken about Marquis. She is very against Navigator and I’m not positive but, it may be off the market. A decision will be made soon whether to start it. The owner is unsure if she wants to spend the $$. It’s a sad situation. She was a cheap mare meant for pleasure riding and has already had near $7000 easily of vet bills with the rotation, abscess, various bloodwork, now this situation. She is an older retired lady so it’s alot of money. The vet is also still kind of trying to decided if the laminitis has worsened from the dex and that may not reverse itself. Finally, with the facial issues she may be too far gone to get enough out of using Marquis or may need more the 1 supply which financailly is not optional. We have spoken to other vets at the big hospitals as well for opinions. She is a rare case actually according ot them. It may not even be EPM. Thanks for you input.
That is indeed very very sad. I have heard from many people that deworming triggered a relapse of EPM in their horses. I hold my breath everytime we deworm the two I know who have had it but they were both given Marquis and rested appropriately and seem to have had a 100% cure. The SMZ protocol is so unreliable that I think I would never deworm or vaccinate a horse who had only been treated with that. It is so hard when owners either won’t or cannot pay for proper treatment.
Dex is 100% counterindicated in laminitic horses and most people avoid it religiously in a horse who has been laminitic. So if the horse was given dex while laminitic, or even during what appeared to be an abcess incident, I would think it may have caused further problems. Suppressing the immune response during infection alone can be problematic. The good news is, no matter what the cause of the laminitis, if it is resolved and the horse is cared for properly going forward, she has a good chance of recovery. Just no more dex, ever!
Hope she finds some resolution soon, either way.
EqTrainer/ChocoMare, what do you think about doing the DD protocol in horses with no symptoms? Pointless, potentially harmful, can’t hurt…?
If there are no symptoms (ain’t broke), skip it/don’t fix it. BUT if you may want to consider altering your regular deworming schedule to include a double dose from spring through early fall… just in case 
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3456917]
Well, tell me this - one of my mares just popped up with “scratches” on one leg. It is extremely sore and got really bad really fast. Do you think I should do a 2x dose Equimax and see if it improves or goes away??? 
I haven’t done anything else yet except put some Desitin on it. I noticed a little lump for a couple weeks but I thought she’d just got a little knick and it was a bit of scar tissue. But almost overnight it seemed to have gone rampant and late last night was the first I noticed that it looked terrible. I’m really really worried about it. She is very swollen today and sore.
And JB - you are in BIG trouble for posting that link girlfriend!!! Damn woman, that burned my brain. Accccccccccccccccccccccccck[/QUOTE]
The worming protocol made my horses scratches go away…forever!!! Gatta keep worming him though.
: )
My mother’s horse now has fur on his face. His face cleared up after the double Equimax.
My Dad’s mule had developed this bump under the skin about an inch down from his eye.
It was there for several months and grew to a quater in size and it stuck up about 1 cm.
I finally convinced Pops to get his patootie out there and worm his mule!! double Equimax that all of the other horses received a month earlier.
I don’t touch that mule so he was behind on the rotation.
About a week or so later the lump started shrinking and is down to a pea size.
We are going to double dose him again and I bet the sucker goes away totally. : )
Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t the resistance to ivermectrin come from underdosing not overdosing ? If you have killed the “buggers” the whole issue of resistance is kinda mute. The ones that are resistant are the ones that are still alive. So the underdosing and not killing them in the first place would be the real problem.
Well… there is a thought that if we always kill off the NON resistant ones then all that leaves are resistant parasites to keep making additional resistant parasites. Which is why some research is being done on SLOW rotation rather than fast rotation… fast being changing dewormer classes each treatment and slow being using one type for a year, then another type the following year, etc.
When QUEST first came out, some vets recommended their clients use only QUEST 1 year, then go back to Ivermectin rotated with the pyrental pamoates and fen/oxi - dazoles. Which is actually soundling like a good thing to do.
I also was reading about using a combination of oxifendazole with another non-mectin treatment. I gotta go find that again…
Here it is:
Preliminary results of a study that is currently ongoing suggests that treating with both oxibendazole and pyrantel at the same time can yield clinically significant increases in efficacy. Thus, on many farms using these drugs in combination may prove to be an effective means to decrease the reliance on ivermectin and moxidectin.
this is an excerpt from thehorse.com parasites series
[QUOTE=Countryclips;3564879]
I called the University large animal hospital in my state to get there take on sweet itch. The Vet said that it is an allergy and has nothing to do with parasites. Ivermectin will not help and can be dangerous if given in high doses. The best way to get rid of it is antibiotics if they have an infection from itching and then Hydroxizine to ease the allergic reaction.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm… My vet said said it’s basically impossible to OD on ivermectin. Which is a perfect illustration of the differing opinions and beliefs within the field.
All the more reason to employ a little self reliance and research things for yourself before blindly following anyone. (vet or internet group)
FYI: I do have a good update to post, but don’t have time. In short all itching has disappeared with single doses of Ivermectin every 5 days. I will report back in full and also email Chocomare all of my info.
Ivermectin has a safety index of 10:
You’d have to give a hell of a lot, but it certainly IS possible to overdo it.
[QUOTE=Simkie;3568693]
Ivermectin has a safety index of 10:
You’d have to give a hell of a lot, but it certainly IS possible to overdo it.[/QUOTE]
That’s what I read as well… Which is an awful lot of tubes!
Yes, I’ve heard that before - good to see the specifics here. So, a full dose of Anthelcide EQ (is there even another oxibendazole?) and pyrantel pamoate at the same time - interesting, and I like it!
[quote=short strided;3568715]That’s what I read as well… Which is an awful lot of tubes!
[/quote]
depends on the size of the horse :winkgrin:
Thanks, but…
:yes:
[QUOTE=Simkie;3568693]
Ivermectin has a safety index of 10:
You’d have to give a hell of a lot, but it certainly IS possible to overdo it.[/QUOTE]
What about the Praziquantel? Similar safety margin? I am trawling Google as I type this…
I tried and tried to find a safety index for praziquantel and found very little for equines. I did find something posted on a Australian site which said it was 5.
It was awhile ago, so I no longer have the link. I might have posted it…
update
I gave my original dd of eq on 9/23, follow up dd of eq on 10/07.
Interesting results thus far.
Neither is showing any signs of ill effects or noticeable itching yet. However,
2 days after initial dd, appy mare had a few small round “marks”, bare spots, dandruff looking, and a 2 x 2 inch bare spot on her upper right leg with lots of dandruff looking stuff. (This is the leg with intermittent lameness) Today, one full day after 2nd dd the appy mare had more of the same, the small marks had 2 hard scabby areas with a definite center hole in them. Lots of other marks that were the same, not there before, and the 2 x 2 inch spot is balder and has more dandruff looking stuff. Also a couple of marks that look like small scars, but weren’t there before.
My TWH has the same small marks with bare spots and dandruff looking stuff.
Also has a couple with the hard center with definite center hole.
My TWH who I have been trying to keep weight on all year seems to be bulking up with no change in feed!
I will keep updating after the full two weeks has passed, but I am hopeful that I am seeing the NTW exiting the body and good things because of it.
It will be interesting to see if the lameness issue is helped by this.
Keep updating everyone!
[QUOTE=Simkie;3568787]
I tried and tried to find a safety index for praziquantel and found very little for equines. I did find something posted on a Australian site which said it was 5.
It was awhile ago, so I no longer have the link. I might have posted it…[/QUOTE]
Thanks Simkie. I found this one :- http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/191516.htm
pffffft note - “wide safety margin” - helpful NOT!
but also found this…
Praziquantel is the only drug currently licensed in the United States for the treatment of tapeworms in horses.
Tapeworms have been discovered to be an important contributing factor to some types of colic. (A double dose
of pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) also effectively eliminates tapeworms in horses, however it does not have the
additional benefits that the ivermectin offers in combination with the praziquantel.)
from here:- www.virginiaequinepllc.com/Forms/Preventative.pdf
Is pyrantel pamoate the same thing as Praziquantel??
I found this, which talks about Promectin, an abamectin/praziquantel combo, which states the product (not the individual components) has a 5x safety margin:
http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/product.php?productid=16195&cat=108&bestseller
So we know that prazi is safe to at least 5x.
Is pyrantel pamoate the same thing as Praziquantel??
Not the same thing at all.
Until very recently, prazi WAS the only chemical FDA-approved for the treatment of tapes. But the double dose of pyrantel pamoate has long been used for that purpose. A couple of years ago, pryantel pamoate was FDA-approved for the treatment of tapeworms. At that point, the Tapecare Plus product came out, which is a double dose of the pp in a single tube.
Thanks everyone.
Just to clarify… Simkie on vetnpetdirect they quote constituents of that wormer in grams viz:- The effectiveness of Promectin Plus is due to the combination of 3.7mg/g Abamectin and 46.2mg/g of Praziquantel; and that it is safe up to five times at that level of active ingredients…
The IMAX GOLD I have is in mg/mL - forgive my ignorance, but does that equate to the same level as the Promectin Plus above? They state that Promectin Plus is safe up to five times not actually the Praziquantel, so wouldn’t it depend on comparitive levels in each product or have I misread?
(NB this is why I didn’t DD last week as wasn’t sure of comparitive ratios)
Okay I think I have worked this out…
The Promectin Plus they quote as safety margin being five times higher than recommended dosage rate is just over HALF the active ingredient levels of Praziquantel as the IMAX GOLD, IF I have done my calcs right.
Am I doing this right??? NUP - I get lost going from mg/g to mg/mL. HELP!!
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