something to kill adult Onchocerca? 19 CASE STUDIES POSTED-PAGE 58

I’ve given up trying to work it out - brain fog. :frowning: But have decided to give them the DD tomorrow morning as I’ll be home for the whole weekend to observe. Am thinking along the lines that if the contents of the PP are safe up to five times and it’s a recommended dose then hopefully the IG will be the same… I have to do something as Patch is not a happy camper.

On another note, is it “normal” with NTW infestation for them to rub only mane, tail and face and not have lumps and bumps elsewhere (ie belly etc).??

While they are most commonly seen on neck, chest, mane, tail and face, they almost certainly show on the belly too. Many folks have posted pictures of bellies will a looooong line of crusty scabs from umbilicus to sternum.

[QUOTE=ChocoMare;3571784]
While they are most commonly seen on neck, chest, mane, tail and face, they almost certainly show on the belly too. Many folks have posted pictures of bellies will a looooong line of crusty scabs from umbilicus to sternum.[/QUOTE]

Thanks ChocoMare, I have seen some of the photos of bellies - but my fellow has nothing on his belly that I can see, just neck, face and rubs his tail till it resembles a toilet brush :frowning: I guess I should have asked if it is likely to be a NTW problem if there is nothing on the belly?

when you give the DD, it forces the NTWs to try to escape the horse. When they emerge, they can emerge anyplace - belly, sides, face, chest, neck, etc. etc.

When horses are itchy, they try everything to scratch the itch - including rubbing their tail even though the itch is under their belly.

The lumps and bumps and loss of hair are from the NTWs as the juveniles - microfilarae - are under the skin, traveling around. The lumps and bumps and scabby spots will get WORSE during the first week after DDing. You can discuss with your vet using an antihistamine to relieve the itchiness if your horse gets VERY bad. You can also apply ointments to the spots, if your horse will let you touch them. Ichthamol (a black salve) is one ointment that can help.

As the microfilarae mature, they become the big NTWs that can be 30 cm long and the mature NTWs are the ones that live in the neck - deep down in the tissues. The adults cannot be killed by dewormers. Therefore, horseowners need to kill as many of the juveniles as possible - to prevent them from reaching adulthood. That is why it’s important to NOT underdose a horse with the ivermectin/avermectin/abamectins/moxidectin. Those are the only dewormers that can kill the onchocerca/NTWs.

So the adult worms will live in the horse until they die (the worms, that is), and wormers do not kill them? They will continue to reproduce and our goal is to kill the juveniles. What is the life expectancy of the adults?

Small herd wrote:

So the adult worms will live in the horse until they die (the worms, that is), and wormers do not kill them? They will continue to reproduce and our goal is to kill the juveniles. What is the life expectancy of the adults?
Do we DD every two weeks until the adults die? Peg

No. I THINK someone posted on this thread that the adults live 12 years or more. Maybe it was 8 years or more. But it’s a LONG time. (I’ll try to find the reference.)

Do a DD, wait 2 weeks, do a DD. Evaluate at the end of a week. If horse is still itching like crazy or still has eruptions, use a single dose of Ivermectin or Quest. Evaluate after a week. If necessary use another dose of Ivermectin.

The critical part is the DDoses 2 weeks apart.

The dewormer should continue to kill juveniles for several weeks after you give it - but you need a big dose to really knock them down and then get any remaining ones that might be “stunned” so to speak.
It also depends on how infested the horse is.

While the adult females continue to shed eggs throughout their lifetime, a REGULAR deworming protocol (using either ivermectin or moxidectin; rotating and treating every 6 - 8 weeks or as directed by your vet), should keep most of the juveniles killed off. Enough should be killed with every deworming treatment so as not to create the major problems. And, keeping the juveniles killed off, means fewer that can become adults.

NTW clubbed feet

can someone tell me how to post pics?

little D, you have to be a paid member to post pics-if you want to get pics out there for free, upload them to photobucket or some free pic website. :slight_smile:

Question: if adults can live for years and become large (I can’t find the reference) but many inches long, would they not show up on radiographs, mri’s etc?
Theoretically if the above is true, wouldn’t someone be able to locate them and directly inject the worm with a needle containing some killing agent?

Chall, very good question. I also don’t understand that if these adult worms are in the horse, why no attempt by vets/clinics is done to expell or kill them.

My vet was here on Thursday and although she certainly didn’t deny the existence of onchocerca, she said they hardly ever still see clinical cases of it, since the use of ivermectin.

In the 1980’s she said they used to see summer sores due to onchocerca quite frequently, but not anymore since ivermectin has been on the market and horses have had a rotational worming program.
I showed her some articles and she recommended to check dates on the publication, if they date back to the 80’s or are from this century.

She figured that my one DD & 3 singles followed by now, have got to be sufficient and I should give it 2 months and worm with moxidectin, wait 2 months and again equimax. That in her mind ought to be sufficient.
Do note when she was here, my horse only had a tiny lump left high up in his neck, so not a severe NTW-case.
She’ll be back out in 4 weeks, so we’ll recheck any lumps at that time and see what’s ups.
She did not feel comfortable with the continuous weekly ivermectin dosing, as not enough research has been done on long term possible ill effect of continuous dosing or double dosing.

My guys had another single dose this morning and as I don’t wish to freak out about liver problems, considering I have one on and off on devil’s claw. I might quit here and go with moxidectin early Dec, equimax early Feb.

ATTENTION THOSE WHO WERE INTERESTED IN HOW THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX PROTOCOL CAN HELP FOALS WITH CLUBBED FEET/CONTRACTION.

Little D (my farrier/trimmer) sent me pics of her most recent case. She is without a computer right now since her laptop croaked. :dead:

This colt was born 6 months ago severely contracted/clubbed. The vet suggested surgery but the owner was reluctant. Little D suggested the DDEP, along with casting if needed. The owner felt she had nothing to lose and agreed to try.

http://community.webshots.com/album/567902913CLrtMR

Photos 1 and 2 are from the beginning. Nothing had been done yet. SEVERELY CLUBBED/CONTRACTED

Photo 3 is Two Days After First Double Dose Equimax. His hooves were casted to keep him from wearing off hoof wall.

Photo 4 is Day 17 (so only 3 Days after Second Dose DDE). For the first time that colt was able to run and buck next to his dam.

Unfortunately Little D was not able to keep up with the picture proof as this guy progressed. However, she told me this morning that this colt, at 6 months of age, is now able to walk normally. She is hoping to get updated pictures soon. Nothing else was done for this guy except the DDEP and regular visits by Little D to recast and check him. No surgery. No extensions. No splints.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not a single case that Little D has worked on and seen healing. It is simply the latest foal since she began her personal research YEARS ago.

Out of curiosity what happens to the adults when they die inside the horse? Does the body eventually manage to clear out the dead worm?

BTW have done second single ivermectin after doing the initial Equimax DDes. Still seeing erruptions, and old lumps really are sesolving, still no eye tearing, I will give another single ivermectin this week but I was wondering…

I am totally quest phobic. Being that my gelding has been pretty well cleaned out with the recent protical would this be a safer time to add Quest to my regime?

I have heard that the big issue is it’s effectivness and as long as dosed correctly the only concern is large worm die-off.

Can someone hand hold and tell me I am not way off assuming this would be a relatively safe time to introduce this class of wormer?
I would imagine waiting 4-6 weeks would be a safe move correct?

Choco Mare this is fascinating… will be interested to see the updated photos. Is there any indication that this protocol helps with the same problem in older horses?

Actually, instead of giving another ivermectin this week, use a dose of regular Quest. You’ve done all the DDing, and a single dose of Ivermectin, so there will be very few parasites in the system. You might even wait 2 weeks from the last Ivermectin and then do the Quest.

One benefit of the Quest is that it kills the NTWs but doesn’t cause the intense itching that the Ivermectin does. (according to research studies already stated on this thread). And, the Quest is effective slightly longer than the ivermectin. I did DD, 2 weeks, DD, 2 weeks, Single Iver, 4 weeks, Quest.

Chocomare - that is just SO dramatic.
I surely hope that Little D can continue her studies and document them.

If I were her, I would contact ?? Equimax manufacturer and request some support… computer w/ web connection and camera for documenting.

Just a long shot, I know, but the worst that can happen is they say No.

Gabz- I’l do that.

As to Equimax why does it taste so bad? My gelding who is super to deworm really was resistant to taking the Equimax. I just tasted a tiny bit on my tounge and it was horrific tasting. lol I ended up giving him an apple after each dose to buy him off.:lol:

The ivermectin tastes rather okay by comparisson. I wont be taste testing quest.:no:

Quest for NTW

Please be careful of Quest as it is not safe for foals due to the fact that the shunt suppying blood straight to the brain has not closed till approx. 4 months of age and in some foals 6 months and some it never closes. quest going thru this blood supply will likely cause death. And I certainly wouldnt dd it. Nor in 15 years of studying did I find it nessesary to use it. nor was it found in clinical trials to be as effective as equimax. If you google horse death due to Quest wormer you can see for yourself the dangers. why take a chance. It generally costs more too.

ivermectin and itching

The ivermectin as most of you realize does not cause the itching. It is the emerging parasites so if you get a reaction with one dewormer and not the other it is likely that it is because on is working and the other is not.

THAT is amazing! Little D, you MUST document as many of these as you can! I can’t wait to talk to my vet about this whole thing.