[QUOTE=ridgeback;4587909]
I realize everyone has to make decisions on how they are going to live their lives and how they are going to treat their animals and what one will tolerate.[/QUOTE]
No, it is plainly evident that you do NOT, in fact, realize this and therefore acknowledge and accept that it is true.
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4588037]
Please note the last sentence of my post, Ridgeback. It regards your attitude regarding what others choose to do with their horses. While you may believe it is “sad” or “cruel” not to turn out horses, they are not your horses, and obviously not everyone agrees with your opinion. You can control management of your own horses, and you certainly are free to express your opinion regarding the management of others, but don’t be surprised or shocked when those others reject your opinions.
There are valid reasons why a horse might or might not be offered turn out. It’s really none of your business, and I believe you just like to stir the pot. As long as we’re talking about a horse for which YOU are not responsible, it’s NOT your problem. That’s the facts, ma’am.[/QUOTE]
People used to say that when parents beat their children. Of course this is my opinion but in this case facts are on my side. The valid reasons are usually the career of the horse or the worth of the horse all of which are the person’s best interest not the horses. I realize by the number of horses stabled 23 1/2 hours a day not everyone agrees with me.
[QUOTE=katarine;4588046]
No, it is plainly evident that you do NOT, in fact, realize this and therefore acknowledge and accept that it is true.[/QUOTE]
You don’t see me starting petitions to the FEI about horse turnout…nope
Did I suggest you were? Did anyone suggest you were?
This is what you spat out early on:
Horses are herd animals and grazing animals locking them in their stalls for the rest of their lives is cruel.
Where did anyone suggest such a thing? Of course that specifically would be cruel.
It is ego and selfish to keep a horse locked up just because it “could” get hurt.
No, it could be they tried, the horse couldn’t manage it, they don’t have room to do so, rehabbing an injury, many things.
People put their own self interest ahead of the welfare of the horse.
Um, we do that every time we start one undersaddle. Given the choice I’m sure the horse would never so much as wear a halter.
Interestingly the horses that are worth the really big money and that would be TB stallions aren’t made to live their lives in a stall because they could get hurt.
While they are in training and competing, where are the big lush turnouts at the tracks? You seem to assert that stallions at the racetrack are routinely chucked out, as in daily, or at least 5 days a week or so. I’d ask you to prove that.
The funny thing is I’d bet more horses get hurt and or die because of being locked up 24/7 then they do being turned out 6-8 hours a day with other horses.
WHO is this evil owner who has locked up a horse 24/7 ? The horse in question is exercised/schooled/handwalked a ton- you would assert that all takes place IN his stall? After all, he’s locked up 24/7, right?
I realize things aren’t always perfect but this is a deal breaker for me.
I’m sure the subjects of this article are summarily devastated that this is a deal breaker for you.
Speaking in such black and white absolutes is lazy and ineffective, Ridge. Bother to put forth a more dispassionate, balanced, reasonable argument, you might gain a backer or two. But maybe that’s not what you want.
Haha! Now child beating = no turnout. Seriously? Having trouble making a valid argument? Getting tired of being told it’s not your business? What Katarine says is true. You can’t stand for others to reject your opinions as regards horse management.
What “facts”? All I see is opinion. Yes, when available, turnout is a great thing, but owners/managers of horses have their own reasons why they might limit or skip turnout. Yes, the value/career of the horse would be one reason. Availability or quality of turnout might be another. Not all boarding facilities offer what you might consider “sufficient” turnout. If the horse is getting sufficient work/hacking/hand grazing, these things can take the place of turnout. This is probably the case for many show horses.
In the end, if it’s not YOUR horse, it’s not YOUR problem. Who are you to tell someone else how they are to manage their horse, which may represent a huge investment in time, money and love?
[QUOTE=katarine;4588098]
Did I suggest you were? Did anyone suggest you were?
This is what you spat out early on:
Horses are herd animals and grazing animals locking them in their stalls for the rest of their lives is cruel.
Where did anyone suggest such a thing? Of course that specifically would be cruel.
It is ego and selfish to keep a horse locked up just because it “could” get hurt.
No, it could be they tried, the horse couldn’t manage it, they don’t have room to do so, rehabbing an injury, many things.
People put their own self interest ahead of the welfare of the horse.
Um, we do that every time we start one undersaddle. Given the choice I’m sure the horse would never so much as wear a halter.
Interestingly the horses that are worth the really big money and that would be TB stallions aren’t made to live their lives in a stall because they could get hurt.
While they are in training and competing, where are the big lush turnouts at the tracks? You seem to assert that stallions at the racetrack are routinely chucked out, as in daily, or at least 5 days a week or so. I’d ask you to prove that.
The funny thing is I’d bet more horses get hurt and or die because of being locked up 24/7 then they do being turned out 6-8 hours a day with other horses.
WHO is this evil owner who has locked up a horse 24/7 ? The horse in question is exercised/schooled/handwalked a ton- you would assert that all takes place IN his stall? After all, he’s locked up 24/7, right?
I realize things aren’t always perfect but this is a deal breaker for me.
I’m sure the subjects of this article are summarily devastated that this is a deal breaker for you.
Speaking in such black and white absolutes is lazy and ineffective, Ridge. Bother to put forth a more dispassionate, balanced, reasonable argument, you might gain a backer or two. But maybe that’s not what you want.[/QUOTE]
Does the article say he is walked tons and by the way this is not only about him and I know it is not true at every big barn? Look you can argue all day long that not allowing a horse to be with other horses turned out is ok for them mentally and physcially. I happen to disagree with you and I think it is cruel to not allow this for reasons of worth or a career!!! I don’t happen to think worked for 30-40 minutes and then walked for 30 minutes is enough…
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4588107]
Haha! Now child beating = no turnout. Seriously? Having trouble making a valid argument? Getting tired of being told it’s not your business? What Katarine says is true. You can’t stand for others to reject your opinions as regards horse management.
What “facts”? All I see is opinion. Yes, when available, turnout is a great thing, but owners/managers of horses have their own reasons why they might limit or skip turnout. Yes, the value/career of the horse would be one reason. Availability or quality of turnout might be another. Not all boarding facilities offer what you might consider “sufficient” turnout. If the horse is getting sufficient work/hacking/hand grazing, these things can take the place of turnout. This is probably the case for many show horses.
In the end, if it’s not YOUR horse, it’s not YOUR problem. Who are you to tell someone else how they are to manage their horse, which may represent a huge investment in time, money and love?[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that to the people screaming about training methods. Fact horses are herd/grazing animals that is all I need.:lol::lol: I’m stating my opinion I’m not putting together petitions to the FEI to do something about it.
As for the child beating it is called an analogy.
I’ll add, the 24/7 23 1/2 hour a day confinement example that you cite exists in your head. Even if I took my gelding out to groom, he’d be out of his stall for a half-hour. Quadruple that time AT LEAST if I rode him.
You erect straw men to knock down in order to “win” your arguments.
Good job, Katarine.
Ahh I said people would resort to attacks…very telling on the kind of person you are…What is it with you Egontoast can you not read…
:lol:
sorry to repeat but…
apparently, you are the one resorting to personal insults and attacks and have significantly changed the subject from the original post.
Not only stirring the pot, but needs to meet kettle maybe?
[QUOTE=CatOnLap;4588132]
:lol:
sorry to repeat but…
apparently, you are the one resorting to personal insults and attacks and have significantly changed the subject from the original post.
Not only stirring the pot, but needs to meet kettle maybe?[/QUOTE]
I’m not attacking anyone but I do get frustrated when people do not read what is written. Just FYI I started the thread but I did not start the discussion on no turnout. If people continue to try to take the discussion off track or misquote me I will say something. If we want to agree to disagree we can do that.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;4588115]
Does the article say he is walked tons and by the way this is not only about him and I know it is not true at every big barn? [/QUOTE]
If the horse is worked daily he’s out of that stall more than 30 minutes. Your argument is that he is locked in his stall 24/7. My argument is…he’s not.
There are good big barns. And good small barns. True?
I would argue that horses, like people, possess malleable minds. I wouldn’t survive a day on the Space Station, I’d be climbing the walls. But I can sit in a cube all day. I have a nice window view 
Sure, slapping a horse used to being out, inside and suddenly denying turnout- sure that’s going to take some adjusting, stall toys, drop the protien maybe…But a routinely stabled horse in a routine, with good care, compassionate handling, and provided good exercise and fresh air, can, thrive without turnout. For an example… see Totilas Or the stallions still at the track, slick, fit, hot, ready, on their game and winning…and not getting turned out.
So again…I quote you:
I realize everyone has to make decisions on how they are going to live their lives and how they are going to treat their animals and what one will tolerate.
No, in fact, you don’t. You can’t have it both ways.
Transportation on the ground is extremely hazardous, horses die in car accidents or during loading/unloading. And believe it or not being in high-end dressage sport is one of the biggest risk factors you can expose your horse to altogether.
Poor His Highness he suffered a fatal injury by taking a wrong step off of the phantom actually being led by a competent person.
Has anybody ever heard of anybody not transporting an expensive horse thousands of miles to an important show or not to collect a valuable breeding stallion because they’d be exposed to an increased risk of injury?
This argument of risk-avoidance is two-faced. I don’t think it wrong to keep a horse confined when necessary.
The issue I take is with why, how and when exactly a horse turns into a horse that can’t be turned out when apparently turnout (even group turnout, god-forbid…) was acceptable for 3 years before. Don’t bring the fitness or training argument as there are few horses in the population who jump around more crazily than youngsters whereas a properly managed (as in regularly turned out and exercised) and socialized adult horse is very unlikely to suffer self-inflicted injuries altogether. I can understand nobody wants to have their multi-million dollar horse exposed to any extra risk but if the nature of the decision was safety shouldn’t the first thing to be x-ed off the list to not expose it to such high-risk activity such as competing in the top sport or being in a van with no safety belt for thousands of kilometers for something as unessential as a horse-show?
Whether or not it is nobody’s business whether an owner choses to provide free turnout or not is actually debatable as in some countries it is legally required for horses specifically to receive free turnout and while it is not the law here where I am there are guidelines in place to clearly state that restricted exercise such as riding/driving or handwalking can not permanently replace free exercise. While I don’t agree with every single requirement outlined in these guidelines I have to say I wholeheartedly agree with the statement quoted above.
Fitness is a big word for an animal that can’t survive its own actions when turned lose. I would seriously question any circumstances leading a horse to turn into a hazard to itself. If there are other horses suffering the same deprivation of basic husbandry-requirements that is sad and needs to be addressed.
But somehow the uproar about Mr. Clinton’s Monica affair was quite a bit bigger than anybody elses and maybe his being the president of the United States at the time had something to do with it…
Likewise Totilas is currently the most celebrated dressage horse in the world so if he is managed to his disadvantage there is more attention and it creates a very bad role-model not much different from Mrs. Werth’s fluphenazine intermezzo. Being a star goes with certain responsibilities and restraints in any sphere. Having public votes about the color of your hair like our ex-chancellor is just one of them. It is good the article states this truth about T’s daily routine because that way discussion will hopefully lead to some change in awareness. Maybe he is suicidal, I don’t know, I’ve never met him. Certainly some horses are, but in my way of thinking they need their problem addressed and resolved and most of all measures should be taken not to let it come thus far.
Humans will do all kinds of irrational things when it suits their needs. Confining a herd animal to a stable and restricted exercise to the point where it can no longer be a horse only is just one of them. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with all that’s done or keep shut up on a public bb only because it is more convenient and causes less friction.
Can I ask a simple question?
Why DID you start the post then? To ask if Hans was using draw-reins…which are clearly there in the pic? Then to defend the use of said draw-reins 4 or so posts later? Did you want a draw-rein discussion? Goodness knows there aren’t enough of those. 
So you are saying you posted a link to an article regarding a horse that doesn’t get turn out (we think…don’t know) which you feel very strongly about, and only commented on the draw-reins on a horse in the background (a tool which you are ok with in the right hands) and it was never about turn out at all?
Color me confused. I’m not sure WHAT the first post was suppose to accomplish or ask or start a disussion about. Other than hoping to send things downhill one way or another. That much has seemed clear since the insults started flying off the bat when egon made an amusing one word first reply to what you pointed out.
Who is you? I hope not me since I didn’t start the post and I can’t tell you why it was started. I thought someone who liked the article wanted to share it with CoTHers. Maybe I’m wrong I often look for the simplest answer lol
Edited to say I looked up who started it and since it’s ridgeback I guess yes the post was originally meant to discuss the drawreins. This entire thread is turning old I’m afraid. There are those who think it’s ok to deprive a horse of free turnout for safety reasons and those who think it is a nogo.
I sure hope the horse will live long and enjoy the luxuries his owners treat him to.
LS is referring to Ridgeback. Methinks Ridgie was hoping for a dogfight over drawreins, but a dogfight over turnout’s just as good!
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4588235]
LS is referring to Ridgeback. Methinks Ridgie was hoping for a dogfight over drawreins, but a dogfight over turnout’s just as good![/QUOTE]
You can think what you’d like on why I posted the thread. I thought people would find it interesting and like I have said several times I wasn’t sure they were draw reins and I was curious as you don’t see draw reins used by dressage people all that often. I will say I don’t really care what you think about why I started this thread. The fact I don’t often play in most dog fights on this board I think your assumptions are wrong.
[QUOTE=Kareen;4588225]
Who is you? I hope not me since I didn’t start the post and I can’t tell you why it was started.[/QUOTE]
Yes, sorry Kareen. I was asking Ridgeback what the intent was if we’ve gotten so far off track. Since it seemed the intended track seems to be draw reins. Another hot button issue.
[QUOTE=Long Spot;4588246]
Yes, sorry Kareen. I was asking Ridgeback what the intent was if we’ve gotten so far off track. Since it seemed the intended track seems to be draw reins. Another hot button issue.[/QUOTE]
I did not start the turnout issue I responded to it. SIGH
Yes, Ridgeback, they are draw reins. However, I think it’s really unfair to comment on them without the person using them here to explain why he was using them. I know plenty of dressage trainers who use draw reins, usually on young horses and only as a safety precaution (like air bags in cars) in case the horse gets out of control. In the photo, they are passing horse to horse, and you don’t know if the horse that HPM is riding has an issue with that or not. People are breakable and horses weight over a thousand pounds.
I hate commentary over still photos. You really cannot judge much from it, except to say whether or not you like the boots!
[QUOTE=Cowgirl;4588264]
Yes, Ridgeback, they are draw reins. However, I think it’s really unfair to comment on them without the person using them here to explain why he was using them. I know plenty of dressage trainers who use draw reins, usually on young horses and only as a safety precaution (like air bags in cars) in case the horse gets out of control. In the photo, they are passing horse to horse, and you don’t know if the horse that HPM is riding has an issue with that or not. People are breakable and horses weight over a thousand pounds.
I hate commentary over still photos. You really cannot judge much from it, except to say whether or not you like the boots![/QUOTE]
Cowgirl please read the thread it is not about draw reins.
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