Spin Off from Rescues thread - it's not the breeders

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8322862]
So, did the original owner of this dog relinquish her ownership, or what? Or I get it, she no longer wanted him as he had been neutered?

That is really bizarre![/QUOTE]

Yes, it was pretty crazy. She wanted him back until she found out he’d been neutered. I can’t remember if she actually signed him over to us or not - not sure if it would have been necessary at that point, as it was well past the holding time anyway - but she left without him.

I would imagine part of the issue in the USA is population density. There are way more people, so way more pets, which have way more babies. So the issues multiply pretty quickly.

I travelled through California this summer and was really surprised at the number of intact dogs I saw (well, males anyway). Of the dozens of dogs we saw, only a few appeared to be fixed. This was in different towns/cities, different walks of life, different breeds etc. I imagine this would contribute to the problem as well.

I don’t think there is any single factor that contributes to the issues. It’s a variety of factors.

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8322872]
And the chi and Golden “families” who would want them, knowing no health testing was done on the parents?

People wanting to adopt “rescues”…

If people were educated about what to look for in puppies, and if breeders of quality puppies were not demonized , people would have better quality dogs.[/QUOTE]

Oh I agree, I’m not necessarily demonizing or wanting to punish the responsible breeders that health test and are trying to improve their breed. But I’d really like to see the backyard breeders that are only money motivated and will dump these animals at the shelter when they don’t sell weeded out. There were quite a few Golden pups, I don’t remember the exact number but I bet about 10? So in my example alone, there are around 21 dogs backyard breeders directly put into a shelter. Those dogs were lucky because we were a clean no-kill shelter with a vet on staff, and we did our best to give them a better future. But others aren’t so fortunate.

Backyard breeders aren’t the only contributor, there are a lot of dumb owners (at least in my area) that won’t spay/neuter and let their pets breed willy-nilly, too. We got in many oops litters, too.

[QUOTE=vacation1;8322885]
I do not have a problem with purebred dogs and I’m increasingly coming to believe that breeding REAL pet-quality dogs (as opposed to calling anything that can’t win in the conformation ring pet-quality) is also fine. But the “responsible breeder” community is not blameless in the reality that dogs are still being euthanized for being homeless and unwanted. The AKC and ‘good breeders’ fight tooth and nail against every single law that would restrict the rights of breeders in any way. They oppose the only thing that can realistically end the horrendous mass breeding and slaughter of the pit bulls, breed-specific legislation. They loathe coercive and mandatory spay/neuter, which has had a huge positive effect in the Northeast in breeds other than the pit bulls. They crawled into bed with the puppy mills and the large-scale commercial breeders to oppose regulation and restriction on breeding. And this is NOT just the AKC-as-registry, this is the breed clubs. As regards their breed and their dogs, they may be honorable. As regards society and dogs as a whole, they have a lot to answer for.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure I understand what you are saying, can you explain more?

Here in the Northeast the only mandatory spay/neuter is for animals released from pounds and shelters. That’s it.
The only other control in place is that it’s more expensive to license an intact animal than a speutered one.
So these only effect those animals that have already ended up in a shelter and then were adopted or for those people who want to save a few bucks and also bother to license their pets.

A lot has to do with people not being overly enamored with having free-swinging canine testicles on display as a way to secure the humans’ manhood. :wink: So it’s mostly just seen in pit types.

But if you get a dog or cat from a breeder, off of Craig’s List, from a friend of a friend, from a box outside of Walmart, etc…there isn’t any mandatory speuter issues there. It’s up to each individual owner. Only if the animals come out of a shelter or pound is it mandatory for them to be speutered before being released. Some of the states have a promise to speuter before releasing an animal from a shelter or pound, they have a decent result rate but not as good as it should be. The ones with a monetary enticement do better, a promise to speuter before releasing and the cost of adoption is raised and then a percentage refunded once they bring back proof of speutering.

But all the southern pups/dogs being brought up here in van caravans? Just like everything else, no necessity to speuter those either. So give it some time and certain states’ better records will go down since it seems better to export problems rather than fix them.

Fund your shelters and pounds to cover speutering since that’s this area’s only mandatory anything that works so well.

But I don’t think the importation of out-of-area dogs will make things as bad as some other states, I can’t speak for other Northeast areas but, in general, here in CT it’s just not “cool” to have intact family pets.

There are only a few cities that have mandatory speuter laws like Los Angeles, Las Vegas or Dallas. Those areas you have to speuter your animals by 6 months no matter where you got them from, unless you can justify not having it done.

[QUOTE=toady123;8322907]
I would imagine part of the issue in the USA is population density. There are way more people, so way more pets, which have way more babies. So the issues multiply pretty quickly.

I travelled through California this summer and was really surprised at the number of intact dogs I saw (well, males anyway). Of the dozens of dogs we saw, only a few appeared to be fixed. This was in different towns/cities, different walks of life, different breeds etc. I imagine this would contribute to the problem as well.

I don’t think there is any single factor that contributes to the issues. It’s a variety of factors.[/QUOTE]
Yes I agree it is a muti- faceted problem.

If you had been in Scandinavia, all these males would have been intact…and there would have been no problem, because they would have been leashed/confined/supervised.

[QUOTE=vacation1;8322885]
I do not have a problem with purebred dogs and I’m increasingly coming to believe that breeding REAL pet-quality dogs (as opposed to calling anything that can’t win in the conformation ring pet-quality) is also fine. But the “responsible breeder” community is not blameless in the reality that dogs are still being euthanized for being homeless and unwanted. The AKC and ‘good breeders’ fight tooth and nail against every single law that would restrict the rights of breeders in any way. They oppose the only thing that can realistically end the horrendous mass breeding and slaughter of the pit bulls, breed-specific legislation. They loathe coercive and mandatory spay/neuter, which has had a huge positive effect in the Northeast in breeds other than the pit bulls. They crawled into bed with the puppy mills and the large-scale commercial breeders to oppose regulation and restriction on breeding. And this is NOT just the AKC-as-registry, this is the breed clubs. As regards their breed and their dogs, they may be honorable. As regards society and dogs as a whole, they have a lot to answer for.[/QUOTE]

Well, the regulations are written (and considering the authors, I do believe with intend) to the point where the ‘responsible’ breeders would be put out of business.
Of course, the puppy mill breeders need to go, but even they come in different shapes and sizes.
Years ago my SIL bred Dachsies. What a trainwreck it was, too!
She had several bitches, one unregistered one…
At first she bred each at every heat.
Each was locked away in her own ‘run’ about the size of a twin bed.
Concrete (kennel regulations, right?) hosed of once or twice a day (not really successful in poop removal…), plastic dog house…
As soon as she could (sometimes as soon as 5 1/2 weeks!) she took them to trade day and sold them.
Eventually, after a few losses, she didn’t do the Christmas cycle anymore, and shortly after that, she thankfully quit.
Oh, and as far as Dachsies go, her dogs sucked…character wise.

So yeah, you can make regulations as to how the kennel has to look, but you hurt the breeders that might have a kennel name, but no such thing as an actual ‘kennel’ to keep their dogs.
20 years ago you could also cheat on the parentage, now with DNA, that’s more difficult.

The point is, the wording of the laws is intentionally chosen. The sponsors usually ride the wave of sympathy, the supporters just see what they want to see, not what would actually happen.

I read those concerns over 15 years ago, I don’t think they have changed much (I do miss my old AOL DalPals…)

We have come too accustomed to blame ‘The Breeders’ for whatever.
I think it’s more the mind set of people.
On the one hand, we have folks (like my neighbors) who leave an intact dog to roam the world, but have no problems to just up and leave, dumping the dog.

On the other hand, we have the folks who can’t see that a dog is not a human. That includes the idea that ‘the balls’ are of any importance to the pet dog. As if they missed them.

In other countries the philosophy about pet ownership is completely different.
People have mentioned the European method of dealing with certain breeds (I don’t agree with breed restrictive legislation, as the human on the other side of the leash is the problem. As such, they will just switch to another breed to do their evil thing, or beat a few more hookers to get the $$$ to pay the license)

But the mindset is totally different.
Hardly a dog is fixed, but measures are taken to prevent pregnancies.
My mom owns right now 7 dogs (don’t ask, not yet hoarding…) but only the male is fixed. Maybe the ones the rescue dumped on her are fixed, not sure though.
But even with daily walks, no pups.

Around here though, dogs are not considered as animal, or living thing much.
you get a dog, just because, that completes the picture, then you maybe tie him out in the yard. Or not.

Macho ball attachment, together with meh management and control…add to that the relatively mild winters, bam you got a problem.

I don’t understand the appeal of ‘designer’ dogs.
Unless it’s the good experience the owner had with an accidentally produced one, and they would love to repeat this.
I can understand that, because my mutts have been great dogs, I would not turn down one ‘just like that’ (including my Beagle mutt and my current head ache, Great Pyr mix, even though I do not have the land to fulfill his needs completely)

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8322929]
Yes I agree it is a muti- faceted problem.

If you had been in Scandinavia, all these males would have been intact…and there would have been no problem, because they would have been leashed/confined/supervised.[/QUOTE]

I have been to several countries in Scandinavia as well and what I recall is just not seeing many dogs overall (whether they were fixed or not I don’t remember).

I don’t think we can assume that they don’t they have similar issues - heck I have seen rescues here, and know individuals who have imported rescue dogs from Greece, Turkey, Spain, etc. So they have these problems - but I think once again it’s volume - not as many dogs overall so the issue is less prevalent.

Where do people get the idea that if regulations were in place responsible breeders would suffer but puppy mills would flourish? It would be the other way around. No matter, we are nowhere close to getting sensible regulations on any meaningful scale, so the over breeding and resultant dumping will continue unabated.

I see a massive explosion lately of designer small breed mix puppies offered on Craigslist here in recent months…either they are puppy mills or just by breeders looking to make few bucks. Chorkies, Maltipoos, Yorkie poos, etc…they will soon flood the shelters and rescues as not every puppy from every litter sells and the ones that don’t get dumped, and the ones who do sell, how may not well informed buyers who buy for $200 off CL for these small dogs will want to keep paying the grooming fees and vet bills for them (let alone if any of them have decent temperaments because a frenzy to cater to a fad who knows what the parents are)

Small dogs that end up in rescue or shelters, even when young show neglected teeth, ears, eyes …some of them such bad dental infections need nearly all teeth pulled. Small dogs are cute but many of the fluff breeds need a level of vet care and grooming the owners are totally unprepared for.

Maybe you should actually open your eyes, and actually READ what those regulations propose.
Yes, it would be a good idea to regulate puppy mills into having runs instead of crates for the dogs, to have clean floors, etc instead of filth.
But you continually ignore when the breeders of few litters tell you, that they would not be able to comply with these regulations as they whelp out their pups in the bed room or living room, and are not about to put concrete floors into their house.
Nice to have a dog run or kennel, but many of the responsible breeder don’t even have one. They have a fenced in yard. No kennel. They would violate the regulation, and even you can’t claim they are mistreating their dogs, when they sleep on the couch!

There were no provisions for the sometimes breeders. No exception.
Not to mention that all those regulations also included some form of punitive measure for owners of many dogs, which folks who are active in the dog world usually sport: Seniors, active adults, working on titles, and young stock not yet ready, maybe a couple of rescues, because one more won’t hurt anything.

I see a massive explosion lately of designer small breed mix puppies offered on Craigslist here in recent months…either they are puppy mills or just by breeders looking to make few bucks. Chorkies, Maltipoos, Yorkie poos, etc…they will soon flood the shelters and rescues as not every puppy from every litter sells and the ones that don’t get dumped, and the ones who do sell, how may not well informed buyers who buy for $200 off CL for these small dogs will want to keep paying the grooming fees and vet bills for them (let alone if any of them have decent temperaments because a frenzy to cater to a fad who knows what the parents are)

around here, I don’t find any designer mutts at the shelter. more the large/medium ones, the lab mixes. So I am guessing your crystal ball needs a shine.

Small dogs that end up in rescue or shelters, even when young show neglected teeth, ears, eyes …some of them such bad dental infections need nearly all teeth pulled. Small dogs are cute but many of the fluff breeds need a level of vet care and grooming the owners are totally unprepared for.

you got a statistical source for that?
I live in a poor part of the country. Yes, some people are ignorant about care (but human care as well) but most of the fluff dogs I have seen belong to the elderly couple who treats them as their kid, with regular trips to the groomer, and rides in the car…

But as mentioned about a million times before, your punitive legislative ideas won’t make a dent in the problem.
On the other hand, education that includes the whole of the family is much more successful!

Regulations should not focus just on clean floors for puppy mills but on VOLUME… besides the treatment of the dogs, its the volume that puppy mills produce that is the problem.

I am glad your area does not see many small dogs in rescue or shelter. I see a lot of them here and they come from somewhere…likely from the litters on craigslist flooding the market more and more each month.

How do you propose to spread education of the whole family to make it successful?

And while I support education, if a family adopts or buys a puppy and it is peeing all over the place and they took education classes but now reality is in at hand…the kids are not walking it like they promised, it just chewed up a shoe and their carpet is ruined…how is education going to prevent a family like that from dumping the failed puppy experiment off at a shelter or rescue?ol

The regulations I have in mind have nothing to do with kennels, unless a kennel is needed for dogs kept outside the house. Not that it matters much…

What kind of education of the whole family leading to success is out there? I wish it were the case…people/can click on the internet (or go to the library), and find out in an hour all they need to know about puppy mills, how CL ads are often an outlet for puppy mills with the seller pretending they have just one litter, the problems of house breaking, the slim chances of an adult dog finding a home if they surrender it later.

All the easily available education and information seems not to have had any substantial impact (though of course keep trying). All I see is more adds for puppies on CL than ever and shelters /rescues overflowing and not able to place even healthy young nice dogs due to lack of homes.

Then lobby and work within your area to change city or county issues with overpopulation.
Nationwide regulations won’t work because every area is very different.

Nation wide regulations have never been tried so nobody knows if they would work.

My county has breeding laws but they are circumvented by breeders advertising on CL , they get around for law by not advertising the puppies for sale but that they are “re homing” them and charging a “re homing fee”…(that happens to be a few hundred $) I heard there is a petition against these CL ads I need to find it and perhaps post a link so people can sign it.

But if there isn’t an overpopulation of puppies/designer breeds, etc in some areas, then why require you’re theory of controls on breeders everywhere?
There definitely is an issue with overpopulation and irresponsible breeders and even more irresponsible owners. But that fluctuates from area to area.
But if people in cities keep trying to make nationwide decisions for people everywhere, then how is that right? If your heavily populated area has a serious problem with breeding designer pocket mutts, then work within that area for that specific problem. Don’t try to enforce everyone else, everywhere else to comply with your ideas that are based on your specific problems in your specific area.

Because the very few areas there is not an oversupply is overshadowed by the many areas there is an oversupply. And even those supposedly good areas have shelters and rescues filled with dogs with a good number ending up never finding homes or euthanize d, they are just not as “bad” as some other areas.

Surely a task force made up of a cross section of knowledgeable people including well regarded breeders could come up with some form of regulation that could be flexible according to area.

While my solution is just one idea, I do know that leaving things as they are means things will never improve for the vast majority of animals ,

I fail to see how asking breeders to comply with some basic regulations is so horrible…nearly every other profession has to to, why should they be exempt ? And of course spay and neuter of pets would have to be a part of it, there are a number of sects a task force could address to improve things.

I don’t see how it is comparable; the large number of dogs euthanize d each year vs the small amount of effort it would take for a breeder to fill out some paperwork and get a license.

Dog groomers need a license and are regulated, yet any bozo can breed puppies with zero accountability.

People can also click on the internet and in an hour discover that puppy mills are just fine, responsible breeders are just elitist pigs who won’t sell you a pet, housebreaking can be instant if you swat a puppy’s bum with a rolled up newspaper and Craigslist is a great place to find that puppy you want to bring home this weekend for your toddler’s birthday present.

If you don’t know what you don’t know, the best advice in the world can be accessible and you’ll never use it because you don’t know how to filter out the bad advice that sounds just as credible to you. Plus, people tend to take the route that is the easiest and quickest to their goal. You want a puppy? You have a three-day weekend coming up and think it would be great to bring it home now. You remember that you really liked your office mates Golden Retriever, so you ask them where they got their dog and they give you a name and phone number. You contact their breeder and say you want a puppy and they explain they won’t have a litter until maybe next year and there is a wait list they can put your name on. You ask how much they charge for a puppy and they say $1,200 and go into an explanation of everything that goes into a breeding: the planning, the genetic testing and the competition to prove breed worthiness. You are a little floored at the cost, and point out that you don’t want a show dog. You just want a pet. And the questions the breeder asks you kind of turns you off anyway. Why should they care whether you own a home or rent an apartment. Why should they care why you want a puppy, or what you plan to do with it?

So you get on Facebook to check out your cousin’s wedding pictures and what do you find? Your best friend from high school has a Golden Retriever they “accidentally” bred to their neighbor’s Golden and they are now selling the pups. They need them gone by Friday because they are going on vacation and can’t afford to board the entire litter. And the cost is only $400! And they are registered! You send them a message and they call within ten minutes and an hour later you are walking into your home with a cute, cuddly puppy. You got the pet you wanted at a more reasonable price point. You did your research first though! You Goggled “Buying A Puppy” before you left to look at the puppies and an article from Purina came up first that explained you needed to make sure the puppies were clean and well loved. These puppies were clean and had fresh water in their little pen in the back yard. Good to go, right?

No health testing on parent dogs. And Mom had never been out of her back yard, so temperament might be iffy. She has never been outside her comfort zone, so impossible to tell. But! You got what you wanted, when you wanted it. And when the puppy is diagnosed with HP at ten months and needs a hip replacement by the age of two years? After it bit your neighbor when the neighbor dropped a Kleenex that the dog decided now belonged to her? You see a video on Youtube that blames these problems on purebred dogs in general. You nod your head and decide that your office mate with the great Golden who has never had health or temperament problems just got lucky.
Sheilah

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8323276]
Dog groomers need a license and are regulated, yet any bozo can breed puppies with zero accountability.[/QUOTE]

Teachers need a license, too, but any bozo can make babies…

So how do you propose you license breeders without stepping on basic liberties?

Of course, there is also a socio-ethnic divide in terms of animal keeping and to some extend for breed preference, so are you ready to open that can of worms?

Yes, the theory sounds good, but the reality is painted in shades of gray, and not in horrible book ways.