Spin-off question: How do you determine if a horse has topped out?

[anon55755751]

Easy answer is if there is a struggle to find the right maintenance or soundness issues crop up. In another thread, the mental component came up (prompting the spin-off question).

What other limitations come up? How common is it for a horse to go much further at home than they can go if expected to show? I am thinking primarily of the physical and mental stress of showing. I also get the sense that a fair number of folks are not interested in showing at a level until they can get mid-60’s or higher, which maybe means the horse can “perform” satisfactorily at the level (60) but would not be “showable” at that level to meet some goals.

[BigMama1]

I can only answer this from personal experience with a low level horse who topped out making the step from Second to Third. He became unhappy. Both physically and mentally he was uncomfortable with the work, although he could do all the Third Level things. He got agitated at tack up time and resisted having his bridle put on. He became nappy and unpredictable under saddle. Once we went back to letting him chug around on the forehand on a long rein with a novice rider, he returned to his sweet self.

[showy]

I’ll speak to the mental side of things for a horse. Really athletic, young and good looking horse with plenty of talent and desire to please.

Schools whole tests (in 60s ranges- trainer is a judge) at home 2-3 levels above show experience. Schools great off property. Lovely to school on Friday in the ring. Warms up great. Goes in the ring and just gets stage fright

After a few unsuccessful attempts to move up with scores in the 50s, I’ve decided he’s more of a pro ride and needs more experience, thus he is for sale.

I think someone more talented and with more time can really make him shine. This is my first experience with a truly mental roadblock on a horse that I otherwise adore. I’ve dealt with it for a year and I’m over it.

[anon55755751]

There was no path for progressive strengthening that could have made a difference in this case? I have been impressed repeatedly by how much there is to gain from just walk work. Yes the pressure has to go on to collect for it to be effective, but mixing in hills, cavaletti and gymnastic jumping can go a long way for keeping the horse mentally invested and happy.

In other relationships, i have heard this “5 positive for every one negative interaction” rule of thumb. I haven’t seen this explicitly applied in horse training, but it makes sense to me at a heuristic level based on prior experiences. Well, i know some horses who needed more of a 10:1 ratio to start, but it comes down in time. Not to mention what they find rewarding can vary and might take some time to figure out.

@showy, similar question to you. How old is your horse? How can you tell the difference between needing exposure/maturity vs. actually a hard limitation? One year is not very long (but i don’t show frequently)

[showy]

@anon55755751

How old is your horse? How can you tell the difference between needing exposure/maturity vs. actually a hard limitation? One year is not very long (but i don’t show frequently)

Horse is 10. I have no clue whether (a) he just needs time or (b) if it’s a true limitation. I’ve tried everything I and my trainer knows of. It’s led me to come to terms with selling as (a) I don’t have the time, money or a personal trailer to show/school/get off property a lot to get that experience and (b) if it’s a limitation, it’s not in line with my goals (a bronze). I wish I had a crystal ball and could know!

I think with both mental and physical roadblocks there are people who can get further with a certain horse whether it’s their setup, training program, rider experience, or whatever. People post here all the time asking versions of this question. Is it ulcers? Saddle fit? The rider? The snow falling off the roof? Does the mare need regumate? Or whatever.

That said, i do believe every horse has a ceiling and no amount of program, rider, trainer, vet work and everything can get the horse to go above that ceiling. However, there are countless horses that are excellent and safe teachers at their level that do not deserve to be “pushed”. There was probably some Olympic medal quality horse sold as a 2 year old that sits around in some lady’s backyard and gets ridden 2x a week. I believe that as long as the horse is fed and cared for, who cares.

Shades of gray to say the least.

[DownYonder]

I had one that had good talent for the small tour – could put together a pretty solid PSG routine at home and was schooling higher – but his show career topped out at Third Level (actually did one 4-1 test). The problem was that he was an emotional wreck in the stabling area and warm-up ring at shows. He got so overstimulated by all the activity that he would have meltdowns in the warm-up – he could clear out a warm-up ring with his airs above the ground. He was also claustrophobic and couldn’t deal with being in a stall where he couldn’t hang his head out. He was not able to cope with hearing and smelling other horses behind him and beside him but not being able to see them, and he would pace and spin in his stall until he had worked himself into a colic. And PA systems sent him into a frenzy – it was not so much when the announcer was speaking, but rather that super low-pitched hum they give off. You could see him visibly relax when the PA system was switched off. Funny thing was that when he went down centerline, he knew what he was there for and pulled himself together enough to earn scores in the 70’s, but he never learned how to de-escalate himself in the stabling area.

I have no doubt that he could have held his own in big competitive PSG classes, but because he was so quirky about show environments and had a propensity to work himself into a stress colic, he was retired from the showring at age 12. He was also prone to episodic bouts with EPM, so he became my hobby horse and was also used as a lesson horse for folks that had earned that honor. Talented boy, but he mentally couldn’t handle a show environment and his welfare was more important than my desire to show him off to the world. I sadly had to put him down about five years later due to reinjury of an old previously undiscovered herniated disc, compounded by an alarming EPM flare.

[BigMama1]

@anon55755751

There was no path for progressive strengthening that could have made a difference in this case? I have been impressed repeatedly by how much there is to gain from just walk work. Yes the pressure has to go on to collect for it to be effective, but mixing in hills, cavaletti and gymnastic jumping can go a long way for keeping the horse mentally invested and happy.

Progressive strengthening is the only reason this horse was even able to get to Third before topping out. He had shivers and a number of other physical and conformational limitations, include a large arthritic “spike” in his coffin joint.

He was very content going back to working at about First Level for another year until unfortunately his neuro symptoms progressed to the point he had to be euthanized.

[anon55755751]

I am very sorry for your loss and if my questions have brought up sad memories

[anon55755751]

@showy

That said, i do believe every horse has a ceiling and no amount of program, rider, trainer, vet work and everything can get the horse to go above that ceiling. However, there are countless horses that are excellent and safe teachers at their level that do not deserve to be “pushed”. There was probably some Olympic medal quality horse sold as a 2 year old that sits around in some lady’s backyard and gets ridden 2x a week. I believe that as long as the horse is fed and cared for, who cares.

I absolutely completely agree with all of this.

[BigMama1]

No worries. We had several very happy years together and I did everything possible to keep him healthy and happy. He was safe and loved every day until the end.

[Mondo]

@showy

Horse is 10. I have no clue whether (a) he just needs time or (b) if it’s a true limitation. I’ve tried everything I and my trainer knows of. It’s led me to come to terms with selling as (a) I don’t have the time, money or a personal trailer to show/school/get off property a lot to get that experience and (b) if it’s a limitation, it’s not in line with my goals (a bronze). I wish I had a crystal ball and could know!

I feel your frustration. Do you mind if I ask a few more questions? If you do, feel free to not respond.

If he’s good at a show, and good in the warmup, but loses his $hit when you go down the centerline, have you had your trainer show him to see if she/he gets the same response? IME horses don’t know the difference between the warmup at a show and the competition ring (unless he’s spooking at the judge’s truck or booth). If he’s only behaving badly when you go down the centerline, isn’t it possible that the issue is yours? Horses don’t know they are in a competition. They only know that you tense up when you enter the ring. You may not even be conscious of it, but you do - we ALL do, whether we know it or not. The main difference is that professionals have learned to put any nerves aside and ride the horse. Isn’t it possible that your horse is just super sensitive to your nerves and can’t/won’t stay with you once you enter the ring?
This isn’t intended to insult you, just something that occurred to me.

[joiedevie99]

@Mondo

IME horses don’t know the difference between the warmup at a show and the competition ring (unless he’s spooking at the judge’s truck or booth).

Some horses are insecure away from home/friends, and cling to their new “herd” they are given - i.e. the other horses in the warm-up ring. Asking them to leave that herd can definitely result in a horse that warms up great and shows poorly.

[Mondo]

@joiedevie99

Asking them to leave that herd can definitely result in a horse that warms up great and shows poorly.

Excellent point. Thanks!

[showy]

@Mondo

have you had your trainer show him

Yes!! She used to think what you did- that I was unknowingly tense in the ring. I swore up and down I am not.

Until she showed him. We’ve both showed him on the same day or she’s showed one day then me the next.

It might be that he’s alone. He likes the shows with several courts close together where he can see other horses.

If you have any ideas…. Haha

I joke he would be the best 2020 horse! I had the time and set up then. Not so much anymore

[netg]

My gelding had symptoms similar to PTSD, where he would lose it in response to something no one else could see. Warmup rings tended to trigger that. And so, I stopped showing him as I was worried about him hurting someone else. He last got me off in 2012, so I wasn’t worried I’d come off - I was worried someone else would. He had no physical limits/top out, but since I wasn’t showing and given his explosiveness, we intentionally worked more forward movements and less upper level collection.

Often horses can’t hold up to some type of work - that tells you to stop.

The other I’ve seen often is horses who are simply slow to respond. The rapid adjustments in balance or bend at higher levels are not in the nature no matter how good they are trying to be. Some learn to be sharper to aids, others don’t. I’ve been told one tempis aren’t something all horses can do, and don’t know enough to know otherwise. I’ve definitely seen a horse with poor hind conformation who simply couldn’t get piaffe because his hind legs didn’t want to fold that way.

[Mondo]

To respond to the OP: I had a Hanoverian gelding years ago that was 16.3, chestnut with tons of chrome, and fancy. He had the BEST temperament. He had been a hunter most of his life when I bought him. But: while he was a good mover, and easy to train, he had some conformation issues that made me have to have a hard stop after 3rd level - which level I dragged him to kicking and screaming, LOL. He was a big boy, but as long as a city bus. While that gave him amazing lateral flexibility, it also made all but the most rudimentary collection impossible. I was riding him in a lesson with my coach after earning my bronze on him, and she said, “You know you will never get this horse to 4th level, right? He just can’t collect any more than he already is.” She was right. I sold him as a lower level schoolmaster and I understand he had a long and happy life. So yes, some of them top out early.

[Rerider54]

To the OP, I had a pleasant mare who was sort of a second hand rescue, decent conformation but started late. Scraped out scores at Second level then was found to have kissing spine. She now is a Training-First level (bomb proof) horse for a lady who also likes to trail ride a bit and has a child who is taking lessons on a pony and wants to grow enough to ride the mare.

I also very recently lucked into a lease on a now 21 y.o. mare who showed through I-1 with her (more talented then I, semi-pro) owner. Their coach said GP was not going to happen as age had caught up with the mare(another late start I think). But she is fantastic to learn on and maybe gets some scores when/if I get on her wavelength. So what is topped out to one might be just right for someone else.

[BigMama1]

@joiedevie99

Some horses are insecure away from home/friends, and cling to their new “herd” they are given - i.e. the other horses in the warm-up ring. Asking them to leave that herd can definitely result in a horse that warms up great and shows poorly.

Agree! I most definitely know horses that are so different between the warm up and the show ring it’s like a switch flipped. One in particular I’m thinking of was competed by an up and coming pro and then given to a more established pro because they assumed it was a rider issue, not a horse issue. It wasn’t.

[TwiSedai]

I sometimes forget how lucky I am with my mare. Not competitive at all, horrid confo, but is the absolute easiest horse at a show. She has always hopped off the trailer like she owns the place, ever since she was
3 or 4, and just makes herself at home even in crazy environments. She absolutely knows when she is being judged and “turns on”, even with the kids at our in-house schooling shows. I always joked if she was taller and not so downhill and better built, she could have won anything and everything by sheer will.

[3horses1]

I got my silver medal on my15 year old hanoverian gelding in 2019 .In 2020 covid was creeping up on us, but as spring rolled around and I began to get him back in shape, he started refusing to go in the dressage arena! I had had his hocks injected a few times, and I could not afford to inject everything that could be bothering him for the next few years so I could fulfill my dreams at FEI. He still loved going out on trail rides, but basically said “I’m done with dressage!”. It was good enough for me and he has been a pasture ornament ever since. I get him out occasionally for a trail ride, but I have seen his stiffness just getting him out for grooming, so I think the timing was right.