Spinoff: How many times pairing same mare and stallion?

[RunningwaterWBs]

How many times do you pair the same mare and stallion? Some on another thread said the conventional wisdom is no more than twice.

But (to play devil’s advocate)…what if you like what you get? Do you stick with it? What makes you continue with a match? What makes you move on to another stallion?

Here’s an example of sticking with it: Harli Seifert’s mare Rumirell, who was bred to Rohdiamant for 11 foals. This pairing has produced six licensed stallions (Rubin Royal, Blue Hors Romanov, Rumicello, Rubin Vincento, Rubin Action, and Blue Hors Rockefeller) and (so far) two SPS mares.
http://www.dressurleistungszentrum.de/index.php?id=175&L=2

[Home_Again_Farm]

I did it 4 times with Weltbekannt and my Rubinstein I mare. The results were always pretty, rideable, workaholic type ladies horses. I have five full siblings from Fidertanz with my mare Wolkenstanza and will be trying for another this year (all but one of these have been ET breedings and I have even been lucky enough to get a set of twins). This breeding is the most consistent I have ever seen, with wonderful gaits and presence. Three have gone under saddle and shown a nice degree of sensitivity, with an eagerness to please and a lot of natural ability.

I have done other repeats. I tend to continue to repeat if the cross is consistent and gives me a lot of plusses. I think it is one of the best ways to really learn what your mares will consistently produce, as well as what they won’t.

[omare]

I noticed the Europeans are not afraid to do numerous repeat breedings–is that because they have a better sense of what certain combinations/bloodlines bring to the table–or they are better at evaluating a foal as worth repeating? TIA

[Sunnydays]

I too will do repeats. I’ve done Sandro Hit twice with my (now deceased) Brentano mare, Fidertanz twice with my Don Bosco, Belissimo twice with my Autocrat, and Contessa is expecting her 4th (sold) Sir Donnerhall.
The repeating is because the 1st or subsequent foals have been good ones.

I’d really like to try some other stallions with my Contessa (her Romanov was really super), but buyers ask me to repeat on Sir D — and I am in the business of selling - so that saleability is an influence too.

[rideagoldenpony]

I just had my sixth foal from the same cross.

In all my years of breeding, this pairing has given me my absolute favorite foals. I plan to continue the cross into the future.

Given that the mare is such a super producer, I bought a full sister that I can “tinker” with – ie try different pairings. Of course there is no telling if the younger sister will be the superb producer that the older sister is, but worth a try. Younger sister will have her first foal soon.

[Krallen]

I have my third Quinar x Calato x Lacapo x Carneval due in June and assuming all goes well, the mare is booked to him for a fourth. The cross is super; the foals so far have been modern, correct, easy going, and beautiful. In addition, I’ve had good demand for them and unsolicited offers in any fillies from this cross, which is a blessing. Part of this decision though is the availability of fresh semen stallions in the US; this mare is old, so I prefer fresh semen for her, and she needs a modern stallion that can refine a bit, add a little blood, and has no close up Capitol or Landgraf. Add to that my requirements of a Holsteiner stallion that is either proven in sport or through offspring, and the pool of stallions gets super small.

I’ve also had 4 Landkonigs now, 2 out of a Voltaire x QdR x Galoubet mare, and 2 out of 2 other mares. The cross from the Voltaire mare has been good; there are a few things to nitpick at which as educated me in stallion selection for this mare in the future, but overall I’ve liked the outcome.

I do feel a lot can be learned about how both the mare and stallion produce by repeating crosses. On one cross, you can get some outliers or a fluke characteristic coming out, but seeing the consistency in multiple offspring can be a valuable tool for selection in the future.

[TrueColours]

I just had my sixth foal from the same cross.

Have you beat!

The Guaranteed Gold / Puchi Trap cross was repeated 7 times - each foal was fabulous and virtually cast from the same mold time and time again

She was just bred again today to Guaranteed Gold. Crossing my fingers she will have the 8th foal from this cross …

[madamlb]

I think it’s certainly not a bad thing.

But if the breeding is repeated on the basis of an outstanding foal … can you ever achieve the same again?

I’m thinking of Poetin … neither the other Poetins II-etc or the Samba Hits have truly been extraordinary, have they? Nothing wrong with them but just not amazing …

That said, I think probably that if you did get a truly outstanding foal, you’d be mad NOT to repeat the cross …

[Tapperjockey]

[QUOTE=madamlb;6234056]
I think it’s certainly not a bad thing.

But if the breeding is repeated on the basis of an outstanding foal … can you ever achieve the same again?

I’m thinking of Poetin … neither the other Poetins II-etc or the Samba Hits have truly been extraordinary, have they? Nothing wrong with them but just not amazing …

That said, I think probably that if you did get a truly outstanding foal, you’d be mad NOT to repeat the cross …[/QUOTE]

Well, as I am a fan of RideAGoldPony on FB… and just saw the 6th foal of the cross… I think he looks better than the first 5. And that’s saying a lot, as they are all very high quality. This one, perhaps the best yet

one of my favorite crosses ever was Saki x Fadjur. Some of the foals/horses, were better than others… but none were “duds”. All were above average to excellent quality.

[rideagoldenpony]

I was thinking about this thread today while I was out enjoying foals and one of the things that popped into my mind is that one mare’s “average” foal, might be another mare’s “outstanding” foal – or vice versa.

I think there are some mares that are just above average producers.

[Callaway]

I love Rumirell’s dam line

I have repeated crosses before. I am expecting 2 repeats this year (a full sibling to Donatella and a full sibling to Ramora). I stop repeating crosses when I see that sire and/or dam are not consistent in what they produce, if the foal underwhelmes me. I will never repeat a cross that produces average (or even worse, below average). My goal is to produce above average.

[Sunnydays]

@madamlb;6234056

I think it’s certainly not a bad thing.

But if the breeding is repeated on the basis of an outstanding foal … can you ever achieve the same again?

I’m thinking of Poetin … neither the other Poetins II-etc or the Samba Hits have truly been extraordinary, have they? Nothing wrong with them but just not amazing …

Well, the Samba Hits are pretty nice, and if the Rohdiamont/Rubirell cross had been changed after Rubin Royal – we’d not have Romanov.

Of my Sir Donnerhall foals, each has had some outstanding qualities, and all have had movement, type and temperament. But so far, it was my 2nd that was most complete in the Wow department. Looking forward to #4.

[RiverOaksFarm]

Some on another thread said the conventional wisdom is no more than twice.

Interesting. I’ve never heard this. I wonder if it is based in science, or anecdotal experiences, or is it a sort of “old wives’ tale”. Because it seems illogical – if you’ve got a stallion/mare combination which works, why not stick with it? I’d be curious as to the logic of “why” a breeder should only pair the same mare and stallion twice.

I have a mare who has had two foals by the same stallion, and both were year-end National Champions. I’ve repeated the cross and expect foal #3 any day now…

[jdeboer01]

The breeders of Totilas bred his dam, Lominka, to Gribaldi (Totilas’s sire) at least 6 times.

Totilas’s full siblings are:

Uusminka (m)
Bussard (s)
Creon (s)
Danzig (s)
Goldregen (s)

Edited with 6th foal’s name

[RiverOaksFarm]

Chronologically, which # was Totilas? (I’m mostly curious if he was one of the first two.)

Nevermind, found it! Totilas is the first of the siblings. Totilas (2000), Uusminka (2001), Bussard (2006), Creon (2007), and Danzig (2008). (The other is Goldregan, I’m assuming 2009.)

In googling Totilas, I came across the Dressage Today article from Jan 2011. It’s a .pdf so I can’t cut-and-paste, but I thought this was interesting (and relevant to this thread): (referring to ISR/OldNA CEO Ekkehardt Brysch) “He said many breeders think every other horse should be a Totilas, but he reminded me that if you have one mare and breed her to the same stallion five times, you will get five different horses. … The differences are fun to see and should encourage us to follow this route. Breeders should learn more about good genetic intake and the background of their mares and stallions. This all helps us to make better decisions for matches in the future. And once in a while, you have a Totilas.”

[jdeboer01]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;6235281]
Chronologically, which # was Totilas? (I’m mostly curious if he was one of the first two.)[/QUOTE]

He was first. They’re listed in chronological order. I read that she was bred again to Gribaldi in either 2009, or 2010. I don’t know what came of it, and can’t find any info.

Here’s her foal info:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?p=10454584

[bluemoonfarms]

I have bred my Contender mare to Catoki 3 times so far. She has produced 2 lovely fillies and is due any day now for her third. I will be breeding her back to Catoki. The first 2 foals have everything I want and why bother taking a chance with another stallion? This mare has had 2 other foals from other stallions and the Catoki’s are much nicer.

[TrinitySporthorses]

If the foals are sound, sane, high-quality, and marketable, then I see no reason not to keep repeating a breeding. I can see why a person might want to try a few different crosses at the beginning of the mare’s career but once the offspring are mature and under saddle, you should be able to tell if there is a standout among them that would deserve a repeat. If the 2nd cross appears to be of equivalent or better quality than its sibling, then that should be the only stallion you use from then out, unless other factors come into play.

[TheBandit]

The Voltaire/Eloretta cross that produced Popeye K was repeated at least 7x.

[dianehalpin]

My Kleopatra R has had three standout youngsters, the eldest is 8, from a cross with Fuerst Gotthard, and is now due in May with her second foal by For Play, since I loved the first filly (09) For Kicks LL so much.