SPINOFF: How to handle a cow kick out of nowhere..

[Auventera_Two]

Well, I am paid by horse owners to trim their horse’s feet. I have never, not one time, ever lost my temper and instantly REACTED when a client horse kicked, reared, ran backward, snapped its teeth, etc. I will not EVER reprimand a client’s horse. I don’t give a crap if it means the horse gets away with murder. I would rather pack up my tools and say here’s the card of another farrier in this area, than to “lose it” on a client’s horse and ruin my reputation. I absolutely CANNOT have that happen.

I have had owners tell me - go ahead and whack her! Well, sorry but I WON’T. Often what owners say and what they really mean are two different things. What if my idea of “whack her” is a lot more harsh than the owner’s idea? What if I whack her and she rears and smashes her head on the ceiling? What if I whack her and instead of “fixing” anything, it escalates the situation to where someone, or the horse gets hurt? Or learns to fear the trimmer/farrier?

What I “will” do with a bad client horse is to back them up 10 steps, then bring them forward again. Strong, purposeful “back up” but with no hitting, yelling, leadrope jerking, etc. Just a calm/focused punishment. You have to move your feet because I am more dominant than you and I said move your feet. Usually only one or two backing up sessions and horses figure it out and quit testing.

Having said that - I do believe in the John Lyon’s 3-second rule - for my OWN horses. If a horse does any one of the 3 “deadly sins” (bite, kick, strike), you have 3 seconds to make him think you are going to kill him flat dead, then you stop it and continue on with what you were doing. It makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if it’s an abused horse, a terrified horse, a playful horse, or a seasoned show hunter. If you bite, kick, or strike, you WILL face the wrath of jesus because it CANNOT be tolerated. My horses know “Stop it!” so I would likely give a loud hard Stop it! followed by snapping on a leadrope, taking them somewhere with enough room to work and good footing, and then working their butt off on the leadrope until they were bored to tears.

The only concession I could see making would be an obvious pain situation. Say the horse has a bad wound, or he slipped and hurt his back and you’re pressing on the painful spot to see if he reacts, etc. My mom has a TB who used to have horrendous heat cycles. She would cramp so bad she’d colic. She’d go off feed, kick the walls, and nearly rip the heads off anybody who walked by. We knew she had a medical condition that caused her severe pain. She got banamine during her heat cycles for pain management. So in “her” case, no I would have never thought to punish her. Her bad cycles stopped after she was bred and had her first (and only) foal.

[katarine]

My answer and boy you’ll hate it, call me names, tell me your way works, etc etc: I don’t believe there’s an out of the blue.

Spoiled horses show their baggage if we’ll bother to see it and reshape it. If I can’t build a loop in a rope, lay it on the ground, step the horse into it, verify I can pick that hoof up, hold it, move it, etc… with that rope my bad. If I don’t bother to find out if I can run a lariat round his tummy and up into his flank and ask him to tote that feeling while I work him in a pen… my bad. If I can’t bother to check who this horse IS…my bad. He’s armed and ready and willing. Train that out…and not with a boot or knee. It’s not about that being abusive, it’s about that not being how I answer the question.

Scared or unhandled horses show their baggage too…if we’ll bother to see it and help them put it down. Once you’re kicked out of fear- too late. No punishment. I got kicked for being late to the party, my bad.

I recall observing an Arab gelding at a nearby low end sale barn who was tied to a pipe pen, standing in the aisle, basically. Guys kept walking past him on foot, and every time…that horse flinched hard, arced his middle away/out of the way, … got his hoof ready :lol: and prepared to fight back if someone got in his space. My guess- he got manhandled onto the trailer to get to the sale and the knee/boot approach was overdone - and not for kicking, necessarily-that’s important to my guess here folks… and now he was armed for bear. He never did kick, but boy he was ready.

Folks don’t have to agree, that much should be intuitively obvious. I asked, I’m answering, and that’s all she wrote

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3699800]

• I do believe in the John Lyon’s 3-second rule - for my OWN horses. If a horse does any one of the 3 “deadly sins” (bite, kick, strike), you have 3 seconds to make him think you are going to kill him flat dead, then you stop it and continue on with what you were doing. It makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if it’s an abused horse, a terrified horse, a playful horse, or a seasoned show hunter. If you bite, kick, or strike, you WILL face the wrath of jesus because it CANNOT be tolerated. My horses know “Stop it!” so I would likely give a loud hard Stop it! followed by snapping on a leadrope, taking them somewhere with enough room to work and good footing, and then working their butt off on the leadrope until they were bored to tears.

[QUOTE]

My questions is How do you make them think you are going to kill him flat dead?? A snap of the lead rope?? That is peanuts, Take them out and work their butt off?? Another load of crap.
It’s winter, it is cold out, no indoor arena. I want to just brush him, make him pretty for bed, and then go home , shower and watch TV. I don’t want to go out in the dark, cold and work his butt off. I wouldn’t know how to work his butt off. An hour of lunging??? Boring and a waste of time. As some would say he FORGOT why he is out her trotting circles and I am freezing my you no what off.
A quick knee and it is over, continue brushing and it is cured.
A2 don’t make everything harder.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=katarine;3699834]
My answer and boy you’ll hate it, call me names, tell me your way works, etc etc: I don’t believe there’s an out of the blue.

Spoiled horses show their baggage if we’ll bother to see it and reshape it. If I can’t build a loop in a rope, lay it on the ground, step the horse into it, verify I can pick that hoof up, hold it, move it, etc… with that rope my bad. If I don’t bother to find out if I can run a lariat round his tummy and up into his flank and ask him to tote that feeling while I work him in a pen… my bad. If I can’t bother to check who this horse IS…my bad. He’s armed and ready and willing. Train that out…and not with a boot or knee. It’s not about that being abusive, it’s about that not being how I answer the question.

Scared or unhandled horses show their baggage too…if we’ll bother to see it and help them put it down. Once you’re kicked out of fear- too late. No punishment. I got kicked for being late to the party, my bad.

I recall observing an Arab gelding at a nearby low end sale barn who was tied to a pipe pen, standing in the aisle, basically. Guys kept walking past him on foot, and every time…that horse flinched hard, arced his middle away/out of the way, … got his hoof ready :lol: and prepared to fight back if someone got in his space. My guess- he got manhandled onto the trailer to get to the sale and the knee/boot approach was overdone - and not for kicking, necessarily-that’s important to my guess here folks… and now he was armed for bear. He never did kick, but boy he was ready.

Folks don’t have to agree, that much should be intuitively obvious. I asked, I’m answering, and that’s all she wrote :)[/QUOTE]

Another beat around the bush answer that says nothing.:no:

[pj1]

A2 I wouldn’t correct other’s horses either. They aren’t paying you to train their horses, thats THEIR job. IMHO the knee thing (grin) OR the banshee thing should be reserved for the deadly sins, kicking, biting, striking NOT for a horse pawing, moving around, etc.
Shadow, I feel that your horse DOES have the right to be treated fairly but feel the knee after a kick is fair.
For the record I have to say I’ve never had a horse cow kick at me…not in all these years. Had 'em kick at me but never cow kick. I’ve been kicked a half a dozen times in fifty five years. Been bitten a couple of times and I react to that same way.
I prefer that my horse’s owner be safe and unbroken and nasty horses tend to end up in bad places so…yeah…whatever it takes it stops.

[katarine]

no, it says a lot. You don’t care for it b/c it’s not in line with what you wanted to hear. I said a lot about avoiding getting kicked in the first place, because there’s no such thing as out of the blue.

If I getted kicked- I set myself up to get kicked and bad on me. I don’t think getting after him is going to prevent the next one. If I’m not dead I reshape the future situations so I can train him to not kick.

That is my answer.

[Auventera_Two]

I do definitely agree with you that we can’t set horses up in situations to fail, then just dare them to fail, then punish them.

A couple years ago I had a mare at my place for 6 weeks for some retraining and chilling out after being scared by incorrect round pen work and handling that was rougher than was appropriate for her.

It would have been outright wrong to do something that I KNEW would terrify her, then punish her for lashing out in self defense. When you have a horse tied up, they can’t run so all they can do is fight. Doing stupid and incosiderate things to provoke a horse to fight is animal abuse. I cannot stand these youtube videos of idiots forcing horses to do something that clearly terrifies then, and then “cowboying them” when they fight back in fear. Remember that palamino gaited horse that ended up rearing and flipping and falling on the guy because they were “roughing him up” for “being bad”? That was stupid and immoral.

But if I’ve done everything right, and I’ve taken every precaution to not scare the horse, and make sure the horse knows I’m there, and make sure that there are no “triggers” that are going to set her off such as bags flapping in the wind or a rope around her hind leg, and she takes a poke at me anyway, then she’s going to get reprimanded for it. Horses have to know that it’s not acceptable to strike out at the leader of the herd.

And no, I don’t really believe there’s an “out of the blue” either. Animals are reactionary. They react to stimulus, whether it be pain, physical touch, environmental, etc. If they kick out at you, there WAS a reason for it, even if the reason wasn’t obvious to the human. But then you have to decide - did the horse kick out because there was a trigger afterall and it was MY fault for allowing the trigger to trip the horse, OR was the reason that the horse feels he is allowed to take a kick at me and put me in my place, or threaten me, or tell me to back off.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3699468]
Your nothing but a brutte, a mean mean person , a bully and you did a good job:lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

I know right all my big fat horses are all so terrified of me that they came up to me today and put their heads in my chest for hugs and pets this morning LOL

seriously, the filly I posted about (now coming 6, and in my profile pic) is out of a very dominant mare and is very dominant herself. As a matter of fact she has ascended to the throne and is now the alpha mare in the pasture. Her mother is #2.

As long as they realize once I show up I am the alpha mare I don’t care how they work it out in the field.

Think about how the boss mare responds to an infraction. The offender gets hammered, quick fast and then it’s over, everyone goes back to their hay. She doesn’t go chase them for hours and hours in a round pen or some such nonsense and “beat the dead horse”.
And i don’t care how hard you kick a horse (unless it’s in the leg or something) you can’t kick them as hard as they kick each other. Not that I make a habit of it, my farrier got her that one time and got his point across and that was that.

I delivered that filly, and did everything with her myself for the most part. She has always been dominant and tried everyone who ever handled her on for size at least once. And that person had to deal with it or they would have hell to pay every time they handled her after that. Once they dealt with it she was fine. But THEY had to do it. Not me. Them.

Now, when she was little and learning, I cut her slack on some things and gave her room to learn and so on. But lifting a foot, cow kicking or threatening was NEVER allowed. Even when she was little. I didn’t go off on her when she was small, there are ways to convey things to a baby. The rules change once they are old enough to know better and have been taught. But I don’t think the OP is talking about an uneducated baby.

As far as unhandled or poorly handled younger horses (like 3 or 4 year olds) or older horses, you have to observe and deal with the situation. Is it a pain thing, a fear thing, a brat thing, a dominance thing? and then respond accordingly.

Some horses you can wallop, some you can’t. To me it’s usually obvious what type of equine mental state I am dealing with, to others it may not be so easy to tell. But that is where you have to know yourself, know the horse as best you can, and be aware of your limitations. If you are intimidated by the horse, then get someone to help you or let someone else deal with it.

[Auventera_Two]

This subject was done to death in the Horse Care forum just a couple weeks ago. The thread was called something like - Do we always have to be the leader? Instead of doing it all over again here, just look up that thread and sit back with some coffee. There are hundreds of posts on all types of methods, including clicker training, NH, traditional horse handling, psychology, why horses do what they do, why we do what we do, conditioned responses, herd instincts, etc.

[katarine]

A2 that’s a reasonable suggestion. Folks are free to participate here, too. You did :winkgrin:

[kookicat]

Happened to me with my young (rising five) TB mare. I happened to have a broom in my hand. I smacked her across the ass with it (once, but fairly hard), and yelled like a mad woman. She’s never kicked since.

[Shadow14]

Just got back from my run tonight. I ran roads. The footing is fantastic and it gives me the long straight aways where I can pick a good pace a hold it for miles, can’t do that in a bush.
It also gives you a chance to think.
This dominate thing carriest on in every aspect of handling the horse. I was trying to think about the last time I had to clean up pop after one of MY horses. I don’t remember cleaning up for the 17 years I rode Strider, not once in the 1 1/2 I rode Shadow and not once in the 10 weeks I have owned Rio. All three spend at least 1 hour every day in cross ties , hobbled and free standing in the alley way. Not a single time and yet all the others I now constantly have to clean up poop.
The horse my daughter borrowed pooped twice and had a big pee in the alley way. Guaranteed this horse and the other girl I ride with will have to clean up at least once every single time the horse is in cross ties.
I know this has nothing to do with handling a kick but funny how my guys never mess in cross tie??? Really strange.
Also funny that all my guys ground tie almost from day one, Drop the reins, walk away, left Strider for 1 hour 10 minutes and he never moved.
Leave Rio with halter of neck rope, totally free while I saddle up and he stays put, really strange how my guys learn to stand still.
Also strange that after spending 12 years in a 40 horse boarding barn and then the next 10 in a 25 horse boarding barn that my guy always showed the best manners, and the girls who beleived in the natural bull had the worst.
One even spent $3000 last spring from a naturalist and today can’t even ride the horse. She is forever twirling the lead rope??? What does not do??
Do see me always having problems, honestly asking for help??
I ran into my worst nightmare today. I was running a highway with little shoulder, say 2 feet of gravel and a very very steep bank and looked around and her comes a large garbage truck, no place to run, no chance of sliding down the bank. I help Rio pointing away from the truck, relaxed my legs and reins. Thighten the reins and legs and the horse knows something bad is comming. I relaxed and just before the truck got to us he hit the air brakes, a big gush of air about a truck length before passing us. Rio went to leap forward and I just clamped down with my legs , steadied his head and yelled Rio. He stood, never leaped and the truck was past us. I patted him good, told him he was a good boy and off we went.
The comes from him respecting me, doing what he is told.
When I get back to the barn I take him to my truck, drop the reins and proceed to untac him and myself, no holding the reins, no speaking to him about standing, just praise and off to the barn.
This is not just about kicking, it is about a whole way of handling a horse, creating a made horse. Within 2 years maybe even 1 year I will have another made horse, one that will not spook, can be handled by a toddler, one that can tangle in a rope and stand still till you get to it . To me a made horse, not some fussy thing that you have to walk carefully around and try not to upset it. One you can leave anywhere and it doesn’t freat at the end of it’s tether. One that you can put a rope around one ankle and tie to a tree to graze.
Wife’s calling for supper

[Shadow14]

Wh![](le shoing I often disciplined other people’s horses, I asked permission and not once was I not granted permission to do as I saw fit. If I was shoing someone horse it is because they knew me, knew what I could do with a horse so again permission was granted. I also asked the owner NOT be be present, some mommas boys were far better if mom was not around and only after 3 or 4 shoeings would I allow the owner to be present. That was after I established a behavior while being shod.
Those same owners IF they had problems catching their horses in the fields would come to me and ask ME to catch their horses for them.
Funny how a horse can run from his mother and yet the mean old farrier could walk out there and easily catch another persons horse???
Doesn’t make sense does it??? Like I said it is about a whole way of dealing with a horse.

Stider just got a hair cut. Do you notice any restraints on him?? NO , he will stand quietly free for as long as you want and when it is time to return to his stall just tell him it is ok to go and he just walks off, but again not until he is given permission. Sure makes brushing easier with no cross ties to run into
[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/2zrp76h.jpg)
All my horses learn to do this. Rio is 10 short weeks is doing this also

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3699762]
there is no depends in my world. If MY horse kicks me at any time again there is no depends. I don’t look for signs, he has no right to give me a sign. I am the boss, he listens. We again are referring my my horse, I own it or I wouldn’t be grooming it. It is in cross ties. I own him, his life is in my hands and he has absolutely no rights. He wants rights he can become dog food.
You are just beating around the bush. My horses are not timid, abused, yes field raised, unhandled but all that changed the day I bought them. From now on they are mine, I handle them, they listen to me and kicking me is NOT allowed.
Quit hiding behind DEPENDS and answer how you would handle your horse if it cowkicked you out of the blue. How do you make this horse stop kicking you or anyone else???
You all know how I handle it, lets here how you would handle it???[/QUOTE]

OK – I will tell you. Yes, I expect my horses to respond to my requests, but they are not my slaves. I don’t not expect them to be MORE than horses, although they often are.

One example: Older breeding stallion in pasture. I’ve known this guy for a decade and had several of his babies. He has always been a perfect gentlemen. He is eating with his head in the galvanized tubes I use – like water troughs, but I use them for hay/grain.

I am not paying attention – I walk right next to him, not speaking, while his head is in a bucket and he cannot see. But I think he sees – I’m assuming he knows I’m there. I touch his side – he leaps up, kicks me a glancing blow off my thigh.

Did I chase him around and beat the sh*t out of him? No, because it was not deserved. I should have been paying more attention. His was a reflex action. Instead I just felt really stupid.

There was another case when a young, unbroke mare used to living in the wide, open spaces was eating in a stall. Solid wall, except for a metal gate in the door way and another half-doorway on the other side of the stall. Mare was obviously nervous, but I didn’t think she was THAT nervous. She was standing parallel to the stall door and her head was behind the wall, but I thought I was ok – her butt wasn’t actually POINTED at me.

But when that metal gate rattled, she leaped up and fired one off in a heartbeat. Nailed me mid-thigh! When she saw it was me she went ALL to pieces. Now, I really DID want to grab the whip and beat the tar o/o her, but she was real close to climbing over the stall door as it was and she is too nice a mare to wreck. And you have to realize that at a certain point it ceases to become training and becomes vengence. So I made her turn and face and since then we do this EVERY time I come up to the stall. I cluck, she has to turn & face or she gets tapped with a whip. When she turns to face she gets a treat <g>. She’s better now.

Now – how would I handle a hot, wired racing TB tied up in crossties? THAT is different. I worked with those guys for 10 yrs. Funny thing, I seldom got kicked by them because I NEVER relaxed around them.

See, I don’t see anything wrong with being a dictator, but I want to be a benevolent one.

Meanwhile, what I meant by “it depends,” is that I wasnt’ there and didn’t really see what happened. It has been my personal experience that horses RARELY “kick out of the blue” but we often don’t see the signals. You can correct with a slap when it all first starts – the first change of weight, or ear back or nasty face, etc. But some times slapping them just pisses them off more.

You can have a lead shank on them and use it to correct as well.

Physical punishment DOES have a place with horses – they get pretty physical with one another after all. But there are usually better ways, in my personal experience.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=pj;3699785]
3 yr. old filly. VERY confident around people but VERY food agressive. New to the place and loose in a pasture by herself. Went in with bucket of feed which she decided to have immediately and not wait until it was put in the feeder. When I shooed her away she wheeled and double barreled at me. Missed not by far. I felt the wind. The only thing I saw to do at that moment was to wham her with the feed bucket and she took off. Went and got another bucket of feed and a lunge whip (only one I own) and came back in. She was scarfing feed up off the ground but again came after the bucket When she tried to get it I shooed her and again she turned to kick. I was ready and managed to get two good licks with the whip before she took off. I chased her waving the whip and screeching. Put the bucket down at my feet and each time she tried to come up I’d chase her again. FINALLY she was willing to stand respectfully and wait until the food was put in the feeder and she was invited to eat. I never had anymore trouble with her although I did carry the whip in with me (as discreetly as possible) for a while. This wasn’t a mean filly, just had total lack of respect for people and this was enough correction for her. I wouldn’t guarntee that the “cure” lasted once she left here though. I think she was the kind that would take advantage whenever she “smelled” weakness.[/QUOTE]

See, I have no problem with any of this.

But this is NOT “a kick out of nowhere”. And I guarantee you that kick that missed you MEANT to miss you – it was a warning shot over the bow. And you responded like a dominant mare.

When she ran away, and respected your space, all was well. But you didn’t tie her up to the wall and whip her over and over (not that I’m saying people do that). And the second method DOES work – I’ve watch a “trainer” tie a horse down and pretty much just do that – beat the snot o/o that horse and leave there for 3-5 hrs.

That horse has pretty much no fight left after that – and it usually sticks! But I just don’t see doing it that way…

[LuvMyNSH]

@Kyzteke;3700682

OK – I will tell you. Yes, I expect my horses to respond to my requests, but they are not my slaves. I don’t not expect them to be MORE than horses, although they often are.

I like how you phrased that.

Even I startle and will swing out if someone comes up and surprises me when I’m on high alert. I got a male friend in the groin good one night because he thought it would be funny to sneak up behind me as I was walking across a dark parking lot, after attending a meeting that warned us about a rapist on campus.

How am supposed to expect my horses to be better behaved/more intelligent than me? If my friend had stood up and bitch slapped me as hard as he could, do you think I would have learned to never startle and strike out at things that scare me? Probably not. And I’m pretty confident that I’ve got a bigger brain than any horse.

My response to a horse kicking at me? It depends. :lol:

Last night one of the mares decided to be snarky over her dinner and kicked out in my direction. Certainly not “out of the blue” - she had been giving clear signs prior to that she thought she was queen bee and only escalated because I was aggressive in asking her to move away. Too bad for her, I had a lunge whip and was able to demonstrate the wonders of opposable thumbs. She has a welt on her rear now and I don’t feel bad about it at all. This mare spent 8 years of her life with NH types and is still learning her place.

A few years ago I was helping doctor a very wild yearling that had gashed his elbow open to the bone. He was heavily sedated but fighting against the drugs. I was at his rear pretty much keeping him propped up so he’d fall away from the vet if he went down. At one point I moved my hand, he realized I was back there, and cow kicked me good. I didn’t do anything. What am I going to accomplish by beating on a drugged baby that’s already terrified of humans? The violence might satisfy the egos of ‘big fist, little brain’ macho types, but as far as the horse learning anything, it would serve no purpose.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;3700682]

Physical punishment DOES have a place with horses – they get pretty physical with one another after all. But there are usually better ways, in my personal experience.[/QUOTE]

Funny you have no problems using a whip to dicipline and yet my knee can’t be used?? I guess I need to buy a whip and carry it. I don’t use whips but I guess if I want to give up this brutal stuff I will have to learn.

Back to the depends. He is my slave, he has no free will. I bought him, I pay his monthly board, I buy his specail grains, I clean his stall, I feed him 3 times a day his alloted hay, I buy his apples so he has a minimum of 8 per meal, I shoe him, I brush him, I bring him in every night.
Your right I am HIS slave.:eek:
Seriously there is NEVER a time he can kick at me, bully me, run over me or disrespect me, not even when a big dump truck is barrelling down on him.
I am the boss, he will listen and once established he knows his place and is happier because of it.
If you think it makes for a nervous horse, a brutilized horse then you have to see him whinny when he sees me and comes running to the gate. I don’t chase him, he meets me at the gate. Could you loan your spirited arabian to a 6 year old girl to ride, a mentally challenged kid to take for a walk out the lane to the highway to graze in the ditch??? Could you trust your horse with either of these kids?? I could, I have and don’t frett myself when the mentally challenged kid returns without the horse because she forgot him beside a busy road. I just send her back out to collect the horse.

There is no place in my world for a depends horse, never has been and never will.

[Shadow14]

Not a ![](reat picture but Shadow getting cleaned up to go to bed
[IMG]http://i36.tinypic.com/2rpb8s6.jpg)

[pj1]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3700541]
St![](der just got a hair cut. Do you notice any restraints on him?? NO , he will stand quietly free for as long as you want and when it is time to return to his stall just tell him it is ok to go and he just walks off, but again not until he is given permission. Sure makes brushing easier with no cross ties to run into
[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/2zrp76h.jpg)
All my horses learn to do this. Rio is 10 short weeks is doing this also[/QUOTE]
OH my gosh!! Why did you do that??

[Juneberry]

I have to agree with you Shadow. There is no depends I don’t care if it’s a green colt just out of the pasture or a seasoned hunter who is in heat. signs or no signs I DON’T allow kicking. Infact the last horse that gave me a “sign” that he was going to kick got a knee to the ribcage and a few loud choice words before he even tried anything! honestly if he has the audacity to give me a sign he’s gone too far and that’s where it ends.