SPINOFF: How to handle a cow kick out of nowhere..

[QUOTE=pj;3701054]
OH ![](y gosh!! Why did you do that??[/QUOTE]

Strider is a traveler. In the winter we run an average of 20-25 miles each saturday and again sunday morning. I do not worry about breathing, I just worry about over heating. Running a winter coat is just too warm.
I clip the N on his butt for cooling but want to keep those muscles warm so just a simple N on each butt.
Over the back the saddle blanket keeps most of that area warm and on pasture he wears a warm balnket.
I pick up a snowmobile trail heading North and we pick it up at a lope and I continuously travel at an easy laid back lope for about 1 1/2 hours. At about that time I turn around and head back south or home again at an easy lope. Ditches, roads, curves , glare ice are all handled at this steady lope. He covers the return in about 1 1/4 hours. He has been travelling steady for about 2 3/4 hours none stop and I bring him in the farm laneway damp but not wet so he is easy to dry off/ grain/ blanket and turn out in the field.
Again I never worry about breathing and only watch the running temperature.
This is a picture of Strider comming in the lane after a typical run like this. Notice the damp hair but he is not covered in sweat.
[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/e1avdz.jpg)
Strider is gone now. I had 3 really good offers to buy him but I chose to give him to someone who would guarantee a home for life.
Gone but never forgot.

One time Strider was standing ground tied while I talked to my friend who owned the stable. The farm dog Emma came and picked up the reins in her mouth and started to pull on them. Strider looked at me and my friend and then off he went trotting behind her. It was so cute. Honestly I could get off him, hand the reins to say a 5 year old kid and tell it to take him into the barn and he would be a perfect gentleman to anyone. Again all my boys are MADE like this.

[QUOTE=Juneberry;3701210]
I have to agree with you Shadow. There is no depends I don’t care if it’s a green colt just out of the pasture or a seasoned hunter who is in heat. signs or no signs I DON’T allow kicking. Infact the last horse that gave me a “sign” that he was going to kick got a knee to the ribcage and a few loud choice words before he even tried anything! honestly if he has the audacity to give me a sign he’s gone too far and that’s where it ends.[/QUOTE]

Most of the time Dogs go with horses. Own a horse and a dog is often right in there. Would you allow your dog to bite you?? Does he get away with giving you the sign?? Bared teeth ok?? Growling at you???
If he is sleeping and you come up on him and he bites out of fear? Is that ok. If he is eating and you try taking a bone from him is biting OK??
If you answer no to this why is it ok for a horse to kick for whatever reason???
Juneberry I agree there is never a depends with a horse kicking a person, never.

oookay. I’ve done many a hunter clip but yours is different. <smile> I’ve never done the letters.

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3700850]
Not a ![](reat picture but Shadow getting cleaned up to go to bed
[IMG]http://i36.tinypic.com/2rpb8s6.jpg)[/QUOTE]

why have hobbles on the front feet ------- then
to me this rather contridict your training methods

if the horse cow kicks there are other meethods you can use without hurting the horse as short sharp shock

and thats water--------

either stuff the horse under the hose and let him kick out that all day as they will give up
as it doesnt hurt them
or buy a small boys water pistol and keep it handy in your pocket as soon as the horse goes to kick
if the horse doesnt stand

when grooming a horse that perhaps is new or is a problem to you then tie a piece of baling twine onto what ever you hitch to and the have a lunge line clipped to your horse and thread through the bailing twine at the hitch rial
then have your grooming box on the ready there to
so if your doing left side of the horse— fold the lunge line in left hand and have a brush in right hand brush the horse in the normal way, then if the horse moves back let him you have the lunge line which is longer than a lead rope-- once hes finnish moving back re place him back to start at the hitch rail and encoruage the horse by saying stand – the horse will only move back a few paces normally then stop so replace then say stand the carry on grooming this enstills trust in ahorses mind
as grooming means bonding to a horse

as you work down one sideof the horse, ie lf leg as most farriers always start on the lf then groom down the leg and then run your hand down the back of the leg and pick it up, ( if new horse or naughty run your hand dwon with the body brush and brush his leg let him know you mean him no harm dont just got for the leg it wont work) then move across the body grooming all the time
then do the bum and down to the lh and do the same ( ideal brush to use during this 1st few processes is the body brush as its smoother and gentle) do not attempt to pick the feet up at this stage we are only encoruaging the horse in his mind to accept us as friends do the same to the other side
next time use the same method with the lunge rein - waht we are doing here is moving with the horse ie move when he moves we are building a close relationship by building trust little steps make a staircase
in a short time the horse will stand still - its then at thats stage once th ehorse has learnt to stand still then we can go up a step groom in exactly the same manner with more brushes as in what one would normally do, and then this time using the dandy brush down ones legs
and this time picking up the foot by running one hand down the back and the other hand supporting it then pat the foort with the flat of our hand and then replace back on the floor
never ever ever ever ever just DROP THE FOOT always replace the foot down and back on the floor
this enstills in the horse mind you have no intentions of hurting him/her do the same with hinds

always start with lf lh rh rf - why most people do fronts 1st the find they have a problem with backs as they hesitate and are more scared to do hinds as they know neds can kick – lack of confidence in the human brings out a fear factor in the horse 1st is to the flee the 2nd is to advade you
that inclcudes kicking out as lack of trust

also when farriers or vets call nines time out of ten ts lf becuase nines times out of ten a horse strides on lf first

also by doing lf lf rh rf then your starting on a easy foot or good note and ending on one so when the horse goes to bed or turned out it gives him time to think-- and again one of trust
becuasemostly people are more confident when picking up front legs with out hesitation so the signal is direct to the horse of nothing to be afraid off

never ever just drop any foot at any time-- its jars the horse never pull horses feet out to the side
ie hind legs run you hands down the back of the leg tuck you body in nice and tight to the horses side and support his foot with your knee if you have to- and then move it out and back downwards
supporting the foot with your hand as you pick out his foot with the other hand
then replace on the floor – dont pull to the side
just dropping feet can cause pain to a horse exactly like when we stub our dinky toes
and then the horse wont give you his leg or foot becuase he would remember the pain
and therefore wont have any trust in you

if how ever the horse is a pain then hose him on the hind legs starting with a small puddle on the floor with the hose running then slowly move up his legs let him kick out as much as he likes it wont hurt him and he will give up as its to no avail and waste of energy-- mind over matter

if hes naughty on the odd occasssions then short sharp quick squirt of a water pistol
at no time has the horse been whip kick, hit or hobbled
all i have surggested and beleive me does work is ask the horse in a polite manner
and worked with the horse, and moved when he did so encuraged him to be a freind
and to trust me in his own mind
time and patience built little steps of encouragement lertting him sleep on good notes rather
than harsh ones horse have a long memory and associate things with pain bad and good
they love work they love rountine ans they love being spoken to
use your tones of voicies and dont speak to them in a nampby pamby baby talk they dont undertand and dont feed treats as rewards - treats can reward bad behaviors and make them then times worse
here i have descirbe thing with out treats grooming is bonding and picking up feet is bonding and both are trust issues in a horses mind

He clipped Strider because he rides a lot - all winter. But clipping the saddle area is certainly different. Generally you want to conserve all the hair under the saddle, but clip the chest, neckline, and flanks. I’ve always done a low trace clip because I want the back muscles to stay as warm as possible. But every person has a different clipping preference.

goeslinkstink. Your kidding right. I’m to buy a water pistol and carry it in my pocket just in case someday my horse might kick??
Are you guys really serious or are you trying to make this into something really big and progmatic???
A simple knee to the rib cage and it is over. No fuss, no dripping water piston in my pocket and no mick mouse solutions.
Do you honestly think a knee in the rib cage is going to hurt the horse.
As for the stupid lung line or whatever attached to the cross tie while brushing again another stupid bother.

Hobbles??? I use them all the time. It teachs patience, teaches the horse to stand patiently no matter if it is a wire tangled on his leg or man made.
I also hobble by ONE hind leg and tie a rope to a tree and let him graze on a choice bit of grass.]
In the summer for 1 hour each evening I take my horse, the dog , a lawn chair and a good book and head out to a choice piece of grass, hobble the horse by one hind leg and sit beside him with the dog curled at my feet with one hand on her head, the horse grazing beside me and read. It is a quiet time, a peaceful time where the 3 of use just spend time. More often then not one of the cats come along and jump on my lap.
I have bedded down in a sleeping bag at a ride INSIDE my horses tether and all night he eat around me but never stepped on me.
To me it is a close bond we share.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3701839]
He clipped Strider because he rides a lot - all winter. But clipping the saddle area is certainly different. Generally you want to conserve all the hair under the saddle, but clip the chest, neckline, and flanks.[/QUOTE]

I often don’t do things the conventional way. When I pull the saddle I want his back to be dry and it will be. If I leave the hair long it will become a wet spot and then when I return to the barn I have a wet back to contend with. This way pull the saddle and the back is dry. I also use 2 nice soft pads, one is washed constantly and I use fabric softener for a softer pad.
As for the rest of his clip I don’t really worry about fashion. He is not a show horse, he is a working partner so I clip whatever I feel like, I watch where the sweat gathers and clip that away. As long as his winter rug will cover it I will cut it off except the butt. I want that part warm.
Guys it works. I run long long miles and a steady ground eating lope and he comes home in great shape . Once I get home I put him in his stall, grain him quit heavy, groom while he eats and then rug him and send him out for the day. I know alot would say don’t grain a hot horse but his core is not that hot , I have been doing it this way all my life and not ONCE have I had to call the vet other then normal shots for Strider, not once in 17 years of hard work.
Heavy graining to me is 6 coffee cans of grain at a feeding.

Norval, most of the horse’s heat release comes from it’s chest, flanks, and belly. Have you ever tried doing a hunter trace and leave the hair on the top side of the horse?

I don’t full clip in the winter because its way too cold up here and if slowed down for even 2 minutes, the horse could be seized up in spasams. So I do a low trace, then when I untack I throw a cooler and a blanket over right away to keep the top half of the horse warm.

We ride in deep snow all winter and by clipping the underside of the horse, the snow is always cooling the horse. Of course I don’t shave against the grain, to the skin though. I go with the grain of the hair and so I leave a lot more hair on than you have.

[QUOTE=goeslikestink;3701750]
why have hobbles on the front feet ------- then
to me this rather contridict your training methods[/QUOTE]

Hobbling to me is part of my training for every horse I own. It teaches the horse to not resist restraint. If his foot ever becomes tangled in wire he will not fight. It also teaches patience. I leave him at least 1/2 hour and sometimes the full hour is hobbles while I clean his stall, brush, prepare his supper, saddle, groom , whatever but he wears hobbles, sometimes on the back too, he does stake out on grass by one hind leg
If you stake out by the left hind leg he circles to the left eating in a left hand circle. If you stake out on the right leg he circles to the right.
Hobble training takes about 10 minutes each night for about 3 nights and then he is ready to wear hobbles. Simple and quick to teach but it does require a helper.
It is a small tansition to hobbles to removing them and telling him to just stand and before long you grab a handfull of mane, take him from the stall into the alley and just stay STAND and walk away and he just stands.
Again my training is not about one thing only but about a whole way a MAKING at horse. Everything in his life is controlled, planned out and he must conform to my way.,.
Again I MAKE good horses and everyone who knows them will agree.
Breeders will try and just about give me a horse just because they know what I will MAKE of it.
When Shadow was killed I was offered a $10,000 stallion for $3000 as a gelding just because of what I would make of it.

You feed 6 coffee cans of grain at a time? :confused: What size are these cans? The 1 lb or the 3lb? My Arab is the heavy eater and she gets 1/2 a 5 gallon bucket of soaked beet pulp/alfalfa cubes, with a cup of grain, a cup of BOSS, and a pound of ration balancer pellets. She gets all the alfalfa and grass hay she can eat too. She consumes about 2 gallons of water in the soaked feed each night. She gets half that amount in the summer months when she’s on pasture. And she’s a pretty hard keeper. She eats triple what the other two eat.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3701846]
Norval, most of the horse’s heat release comes from it’s chest, flanks, and belly. Have you ever tried doing a hunter trace and leave the hair on the top side of the horse?

I don’t full clip in the winter because its way too cold up here and if slowed down for even 2 minutes, the horse could be seized up in spasams. So I do a low trace, then when I untack I throw a cooler and a blanket over right away to keep the top half of the horse warm.

We ride in deep snow all winter and by clipping the underside of the horse, the snow is always cooling the horse. Of course I don’t shave against the grain, to the skin though. I go with the grain of the hair and so I leave a lot more hair on than you have.[/QUOTE]

Hi Vickey. I don’t even know what a hunter clip is?? I certainly could look it up but I want full hair on the belly because his blanket doesn’t cover the belly and while standing out in the fields all winter his stomach needs protection. Same with his chest. The blanket often gaps in the chest area and I don’t want his catching cold.
Look at the picture with me in the lane and you see his flank is shaved as well as behind the elbow.
This horse has just probably loped 22-25 miles and I don’t know why I am still on him. I always get off at the head of the lane and loosen the saddle and hand walk him in and yet I am still aboard and at the barn.
It must have had to do with Sue having a camera in her hand and I wanted my picture taken.
The way I clip works for me, doesn’t look pretty but hey it works.
Have a nice day Vickey
Norval

Oh, I see what you’re saying about blankets. That’s a good point. Again, I don’t clip to the skin so it’s not “as” big a deal. Also mine stays in overnight which is the coldest period. I tend to buy blankets big so they are fastened up on the last holes on the chest so there’s no gap, and then I keep the surcincgle straps relatively tight so it pulls the blanket kind of under the belly. Of course if I were rich I’d buy those Rambos with big belly bands. :lol: But yeah right - I’m headed to the vet today to drop 148 dollars on neutering a stray dog that showed up. Geeze it never ends does it.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3701917]
Oh, I see what you’re saying about blankets. That’s a good point. Again, I don’t clip to the skin so it’s not “as” big a deal. Also mine stays in overnight which is the coldest period. I tend to buy blankets big so they are fastened up on the last holes on the chest so there’s no gap, and then I keep the surcincgle straps relatively tight so it pulls the blanket kind of under the belly. Of course if I were rich I’d buy those Rambos with big belly bands. :lol: But yeah right - I’m headed to the vet today to drop 148 dollars on neutering a stray dog that showed up. Geeze it never ends does it.[/QUOTE]

Vickey I stable my horse nights too. I wouldn’t have outside board. My horse goes out at 7 in the morning and comes in at 6 at night in the winter. June through september he is out nights if the weather is ok but come winter he is groomed and stables nightly.
That is generous of you to take in a stray dog and neuter him.
You have a good heart
Norval

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3701863]
You feed 6 coffee cans of grain at a time? :confused: What size are these cans? The 1 lb or the 3lb? My Arab is the heavy eater and she gets 1/2 a 5 gallon bucket of soaked beet pulp/alfalfa cubes, with a cup of grain, a cup of BOSS, and a pound of ration balancer pellets. She gets all the alfalfa and grass hay she can eat too. She consumes about 2 gallons of water in the soaked feed each night. She gets half that amount in the summer months when she’s on pasture. And she’s a pretty hard keeper. She eats triple what the other two eat.[/QUOTE]

He got 6 1 pound coffee cans of grain in the morning and another 6 1 pound cans at night.
I feed steam rolled corn, oats and sweet feed mixed together with about 8 apples finally sliced per feeding. I actually want a hot horse. That is what give him the drive with the constant miles.
If you travel long runs the horse learns that leaving the starting gate is the start of a long run so they run slow, sluggish at first, no wasted energy, no fighting, just a laid back lope and as the miles roll back , the shoulders warm up you can feel the horse loosening up and getting more and more into the swing of things. On a warm summer day it took Strider 30-45 minutes to even start to warm up travelling at a easy lope. I believe that once conditioned to the long runs a horse puts very little effort into the start, saves himself for the long haul, saves energy anyway.
Rio with only 10 weeks into training doesn’t know this and starts out too fast and it takes a few miles to settle him down. I try to never give him more then one day off at a stretch so the start is at least acceptable.
I do try a working trot only for the first while to leg a horse up. To me trotting is like putting money in the bank, building my account. Loping is like spending money. You need a healthy bank account before you go spending so those months of long slow trotting are needed. Also Rio being only 3 years 9 months now is still very very young and I don’t want to lope him until at least 4 or a little more.
Rio is not on this high grain diet yet and it consists of only 3 coffee cans and a can of water soaked horse crunch for moisture but a small handfull of salt thrown/mixed in every feeding. I don’t beleive horses get enough salt through a salt lik. I feed normal iodized table salt with every feeding.

If I used water as a correction for kicking I’ve got one who would stand and kick at me all day long because he’d think it was a reward for kicking. He’d LOVE it

12 lbs of grain a day! Wowwwweee that’s a lot. Mine is PLENTY hot enough with no grain! :eek: :lol: You can feed this much because you work them so much. They burn it off. The average horse couldn’t safely eat 12 pounds of grain and 16 apples a day or they’d founder and they would be certifiably insane. Especially with all that molasses and corn. Alfalfa based pellets would be safer for most horses.

I up Sweets’ grain during endurance rides but that’s it. I still mix it with soaked beet pulp and I mix apple sauce into it also for extra flavor. She won’t eat apples but she loves carrots. But only the big carrots. Not baby carrots. They must be too sweet or something.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3702251]
12 lbs of grain a day! Wowwwweee that’s a lot. Mine is PLENTY hot enough with no grain! :eek: :lol: You can feed this much because you work them so much. They burn it off. The average horse couldn’t safely eat 12 pounds of grain and 16 apples a day or they’d founder and they would be certifiably insane. Especially with all that molasses and corn. Alfalfa based pellets would be safer for most horses.

I up Sweets’ grain during endurance rides but that’s it. I still mix it with soaked beet pulp and I mix apple sauce into it also for extra flavor. She won’t eat apples but she loves carrots. But only the big carrots. Not baby carrots. They must be too sweet or something.[/QUOTE]

One of the endurance horse that Earl Baxter runs/ran was on 26 pounds a day with corn as the main source.
If you run enough grain doesn’t make them hot. I never found Strider hot but again to me a 2 day layoff is letting them sit too long.
My normal schedule is long Saturday, long Sunday and a 10 mile run Tuesdays and Thursday and depending on weather another 10 mile run Friday afternoon but that one is only weather depended. The others are not and even in a snow storm I will be out there running bush.
I have a large apple orchard and starting in mid August I dump a water pail in the morning and another in the evening in for 4 horses.
I also feed pair since there rippen earlier.
When I was young we pastured the horses in the orchard where they had unlimited apples. We had say a 3 or so acre orchard and that was where the horses were kept. Never had a horse colic, not once.

Vickey I have had many people say their horse won’t eat apples and give me a week and I would spoil her. Nice juicy apples cut into small pieces, she couldn’t resist. Guaranteed.

I’ve tried all kinds of apples chopped up, in the grain, fed by hand, and she just plain doesn’t like them. She won’t eat pears or grapes either. But show her a carrot and she’s your friend for life. Or potato chips or those cheese and pretzel Combos. She loves those.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3702310]
I’ve tried all kinds of apples chopped up, in the grain, fed by hand, and she just plain doesn’t like them. She won’t eat pears or grapes either. But show her a carrot and she’s your friend for life. Or potato chips or those cheese and pretzel Combos. She loves those.[/QUOTE]
Mine love the apples, pears, peaches, carrots, etc. Not too fond of grapes but will eat a few. She loves kosher pickles…the expensive kind.