I have been saying all along that the European’s are selling the USA their culls.
Are they really? ALL OF THEM? Obviously there are SOME of them that are certainly culls, but can we make a blank statement like this and be right??
My thoughts on this is that any time you don’t have the money to buy the good ones, you buy the culls, unless you are a “friend of the family” or you happen to be at the right place at the right moment in a unlikely situation. Regardless of the country.
I don’t think when a well know USA breeder is in a bidding fight with Paul Schockemoehle for a young stallion, they are fighting about a cull. And when an welthy french canadian upcoming breeder buys the Champion Jumping Mare of the 2010 Herwart von der Decken Show, and import her down here… I don’t think they would have named Champion a cull just for the sake of marketing her abroad…
Nothing is all white or black.
And if let’s say the statement is somehow accurate… Does that means that the culls from Europe are sometimes good enough for us that we still prefer buying their culls than buying here the best NA bred ones? That would be for me a big wake up as a breeder no?
Would love to hear what you think about this thinking that imported horses are the cull of the European market…
I have heard that since I bought my WB. Some are culls, some are not culls. Obviously all of our geldings did not make the cut (ouch!) to be in the studs in europe.
However, there’s a difference between someone going to europe and looking at prospects offered for sale there to everyone vs. horses exported by breeders over there to the USA to sell. If a dealer goes over there, he can look at all sale horses, not just those which breeders want to send over here. I do think european breeders want to send quality horses here so that they will get more business.
Look for the branded premium on horses from europe. Judges aren’t going to allow a foal to be branded premium unless he’s good enough for the europeans.
I don‘t think anyone is going to argue that sweeping generalizations are 100% true, regardless of the context.
If you’ve been around any length of time, you notice examples of breeding stallions coming to the USA because they were out of favor in Germany. Some were heavily pimped by registries operating here. It was not a question of our mare base being better suited, it was more a question of eeking out more profit from a stallion who had no more market value in Germany. One could say that “the Germans no longer wanted the stallions, so they were sent here” so in that respect they were “culls.” I can think of dozens of examples, but there are posters on this forum who own offspring from these stallions, so I will not name names.
Bottom line is that if you have to rely upon hype, inspections, or some registry personal to make your breeding decisions, you should probably not breed. Even more on point, success in breeding is a matter of finding the sire that ideally suits your individual mare (and whatever credible breeding goals you may have), regardless of who owns him and how many foals he’s sired.
I think that some of the worst breeding decisions are based upon numbers generated at inspections. If you want a horse that can perform, base you pedigrees on horses with performance careers.
I don’t think when a well know USA breeder is in a bidding fight with Paul Schockemoehle for a young stallion, they are fighting about a cull. And when an welthy french canadian upcoming breeder buys the Champion Jumping Mare of the 2010 Herwart von der Decken Show, and import her down here… I don’t think they would have named Champion a cull just for the sake of marketing her abroad…
Excellent points, Spike.
I just had this conversation last night with a couple of long time horse people - one a long time hunter rider, another a farrier who has spent a great deal of time in WPB and at other big venues and BNT barns shoeing some very famous horses (dressage, hunters, and jumpers). Interestingly enough, the farrier is also a sport horse breeder who uses very good mares and stallions in his program.
All agreed that many of the European horses that end up here ARE culls, but the word “cull” does not necessarily need to have a negative connotation in this regard. It could be the horses just weren’t going to work in the seller’s program in Europe. Maybe there are already too many of that bloodline in the area (speaking about mares and stallions here). Maybe the horse doesn’t have the scope or boldness for big ring jumping, or the gaits for big ring dressage, but would probably do superbly well as a show hunter in the U.S.
As a matter of fact, lots of horses are also “culled” from NA programs. How many NA bred “dressage” horses end up doing AA hunters? Would you say they are culls from a dressage breeding program? How many NA bred “hunters” end up as dressage horses or backyard pleasure or trail horses? Would you say they are culls from a hunter breeding program? How many NA bred “jumpers” end up as hunters or dressage horses? Would you say they are culls from a jumper breeding program?
And if a NA breeder sold a horse to Europe, would you say it was a cull? :winkgrin:
Agree totally. It´s the same talk when people here in Sweden go to for example Germany and buy a horse. “They only sell the ones that is something wrong with!”.
Dah… there are good horses and not so good horses for sale everywhere. And sometimes those horses that are not so good at one thing shows excellence in other areas and vice versa. And sometimes they are just plain good horses.
Friend of mine sold a young showjumper that she realized wouldn´t do much more than 3.9 but was supercute, a real easy ride and overall gem to the US and it got lots of showmileage in equitation with among others Jessica Springsteen.
Also have acquaintance that sold a 7yo 1,45 horse which a couple of years later ended up doing first round (the speedclass) in the WorldCupfinal with one of your american female riders. Would any of those be culls in the bad sense? Hardly…
This is what is so wonderful about the North American market. Whereas in Europe, it is difficult to place the horse that is not going to the top of its sport, here we make up in breadth of market what we lack in depth.
This does not mean that breeding for the top of the sport should not remain the goal and that we are not eager to see our exceptionally talented youngsters in hands that can develop their full potential, but it does mean that lesser talent can also be developed in a way that gives satisfaction to us as breeder as well as to owner and horse.
Some have a magical idea that in Europe no one needs money and that they pride their animals more than their own livelyhood…
Pfft!
Grew up with a dutch family, rode with europeans half my life, and they’d sell the family dog if you offered the right price :lol: Okay just kidding but seriously.
We all are pretty realistic when it comes bill paying day lol
Many producers are sold to the US every year. With importing prices its not like everyday you see one in someones backyard, but they are in the good US breeding sheds and plenty of them :yes:.
What are you on about Nomoii. When you make your living from horses then they do tend to be put high on the list. I don’t know anyone here who does horses and doesn’t sell. Maybe a valuable mare but otherwise it’s just a tad different when the name of the game is produce to sell.
I think people get confused on the word cull. Thank goodness these unworthy of breeding horses end up somewhere or we wouldn’t have any sport.
Can’t really opine for all of Europe, but when I look at the PSI sale and process, it seems to me that PS and UK are breeding a bunch of the best horses they can, with the primary goal of making money. Whoever writes the biggest check for each sale horse wins, no matter what country.
And with the number of very high 6-figure horses that are going thru the auctions, they can’t possibly be too far down the quality list. The other reality is that you can’t be sure that the best 4 yr old will make the best GP horse, either in the jumper ring or the dressage ring. OR that they will even get that far…
Also - if Totilas was sold by people in the Netherlands to people in Germany, does that make him a cull?
[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;6037394]
Depends on where/who you buy from. There are scammers everywhere. But savvy buyers can of course make good purchases – regardless of the country![/QUOTE]
To tag on G’s post…in our own breed “back in the day” ponies were bought in the UK in lots of 5-10-20 whatever and the sellers would sell you the one you wanted plus 5-7 you did not;) package deal take it or leave it
we must back up to the actual writings of the Verbrands among one another,in about the 1980-90s where they said point blank that if they were not supported by the govt a bit better, they were very afraid that the best horses would be sold away from them as they could not pay what the American/foreign buyers would
I recall hearing a well-known breeder in Europe who exports weanlings in lots of 8 (a pallet) say a few years ago that out of the 8, they expect one to be outstanding, 5 to be in the middle and 2 to be problematic.
[QUOTE=Cartier;6036419]
[…]
If you’ve been around any length of time, you notice examples of breeding stallions coming to the USA because they were out of favor in Germany. Some were heavily pimped by registries operating here. It was not a question of our mare base being better suited, it was more a question of eeking out more profit from a stallion who had no more market value in Germany. One could say that “the Germans no longer wanted the stallions, so they were sent here” so in that respect they were “culls.” I can think of dozens of examples, but there are posters on this forum who own offspring from these stallions, so I will not name names.
[…][/QUOTE]
There is a big point missed or explained ina wrong way in this post that is very important !
maybe true the stallion that are to be found in the USA and have entered the country of an older age are often stallions out of favour. Hence they are put up for sale. Sometimes they are sold within Germany to small breeding stations or to any other in Europe. Who buys them is not a problem of the Germans or do you think the american buyers are forced to buy ? They (the buyers) have a free will and a choice.
So it is wrong to state the germans SEND their culls over. I do not know about a stallion send over by his owner to do some years in the USA and is not sold. If that would be the case well than one could speek about germans send their culls over.
Same accounts for other sales horses. Horses are for sale. Either because it is part of the business plan of the breeder to sell each year a number of horses or because a specific mare had had already 3 retained fillies, so the dam is sold to go on in the breeding program. In the latter case one could say the breeder is culling his breeding program, but does that mean that that particular mare is a bad horse ? A horse is offered for sale and who wants to pay the offering price gets it. On the other hand, I have just bought a mare where it was very important to the seller( a big dealer) that this mare would not leave Germany. He thinks that we are at the moment selling way too many good ones from our mare base to outside the state and that this would come back to us in a few years, when we have lost these horses. So how does this that fit to we just sell our culls, if he states that the good ones leave the country ? I have also the experience that buyers from the US that buy breeding material have a clear picture of what they want. They know what they are looking at and they do not spend/waste time on average material as long as they can afford it.
A lot comes down to the definition of the word Culling.
And another aspect is something that I have the feeiling that it seems to be very easy and often done in the US society to make others responsible for the own acitions. In this case it comes back to: it is the problem of the germans that in the USA only culls of Europe are to be found.
I wouldn’t say they are culls as in dog food, bound to be Alpo types. however…
For a decade now, if not more, North Americans have been utterly ‘convinced’ that to succeed they need an import. Heck doesn’t even have to be a top rider, just be an ammy who does a 3 foot class 3x a year and you just aren’t ‘serious’ if you don’t have a foreign model.
Europeans know this, they are just as smart in the horse business (maybe smarter- who knows) and they happily provide all the horses that don’t make their exacting cut to us North Americans who trot over there with cash in hand, of course.
I breed for a specific niche, however I think this constant looking over the pond, will in the long run hurt our own programs here - but what do I know?
Horse dealers in general will sell horses to anybody who will buy them. In general, Americans in droves are willing to buy, particularly from Europe, and Europe has some of the best dealers in the business
Some American buyers are discriminating and will pay top dollar for top horses, but it’s rare that a genuinely proven top horse will be sold through a dealer to an American–those are usually direct deals, and we can likely count them on one hand they are that infrequent.
For horses who don’t make that top grade in Europe, the US hunter/AA niche is definitely considered ‘the market.’ As such, what we are offered are ‘culls.’
[QUOTE=Spike;6036407]
In another thread we can read:
Are they really? ALL OF THEM? Obviously there are SOME of them that are certainly culls, but can we make a blank statement like this and be right??
My thoughts on this is that any time you don’t have the money to buy the good ones, you buy the culls, unless you are a “friend of the family” or you happen to be at the right place at the right moment in a unlikely situation. Regardless of the country.
I don’t think when a well know USA breeder is in a bidding fight with Paul Schockemoehle for a young stallion, they are fighting about a cull. And when an welthy french canadian upcoming breeder buys the Champion Jumping Mare of the 2010 Herwart von der Decken Show, and import her down here… I don’t think they would have named Champion a cull just for the sake of marketing her abroad…
Nothing is all white or black.
And if let’s say the statement is somehow accurate… Does that means that the culls from Europe are sometimes good enough for us that we still prefer buying their culls than buying here the best NA bred ones? That would be for me a big wake up as a breeder no?
Would love to hear what you think about this thinking that imported horses are the cull of the European market…[/QUOTE]
Since when is a cull bad? A cull is an animal that is culled from the breeding program, for whatever reason. All horses that are sold by the breeder to another person, are culled. Maybe they get the 12th filly from a mare, and don’t need any others… Maybe they are keeping daughters from one stallion and so don’t want to retain any of his sons. Maybe it’s because someone offered them so much money, it’s worth it to sell the animal. All culling is is removing an animal from the breeding herd. So was Totilas culled… well… yeah. Someone offered his owners so much money, they were willing to sacrifice his use in their program. Even people who are breeding, are often buying animals culled from another person’s program.
[QUOTE=alexandra;6037918]
. On the other hand, I have just bought a mare where it was very important to the seller( a big dealer) that this mare would not leave Germany…[/QUOTE]
I have heard the same from breeders of Cobs in Wales…they think this is a dead end place and the best blood should stay right there
of course,I look at some (not all) of the reiners there in Europe and think “Oh my god they did NOT pay more than $3500 for THAT ?!!?? Did they?”
I know someone who definately buys the “culls” in Germany then turns around, makes them A circuit hunters & gets 6 figure prices for them. They didn’t have either the jump for a jumper or the round movement for a dressage horse but are gorgeous, sound, big, kind & worth their weight in gold as hunters. Just one outlet for the “culls”.
There is a big point missed or explained ina wrong way in this post that is very important !
maybe true the stallion that are to be found in the USA and have entered the country of an older age are often stallions out of favour. Hence they are put up for sale. Sometimes they are sold within Germany to small breeding stations or to any other in Europe. Who buys them is not a problem of the Germans or do you think the american buyers are forced to buy ? They (the buyers) have a free will and a choice.
So it is wrong to state the germans SEND their culls over. I do not know about a stallion send over by his owner to do some years in the USA and is not sold. If that would be the case well than one could speek about germans send their culls over.
Same accounts for other sales horses. Horses are for sale. Either because it is part of the business plan of the breeder to sell each year a number of horses or because a specific mare had had already 3 retained fillies, so the dam is sold to go on in the breeding program. In the latter case one could say the breeder is culling his breeding program, but does that mean that that particular mare is a bad horse ? A horse is offered for sale and who wants to pay the offering price gets it. On the other hand, I have just bought a mare where it was very important to the seller( a big dealer) that this mare would not leave Germany. He thinks that we are at the moment selling way too many good ones from our mare base to outside the state and that this would come back to us in a few years, when we have lost these horses. So how does this that fit to we just sell our culls, if he states that the good ones leave the country ? I have also the experience that buyers from the US that buy breeding material have a clear picture of what they want. They know what they are looking at and they do not spend/waste time on average material as long as they can afford it.
A lot comes down to the definition of the word Culling.
And another aspect is something that I have the feeiling that it seems to be very easy and often done in the US society to make others responsible for the own acitions. In this case it comes back to: it is the problem of the germans that in the USA only culls of Europe are to be found.[/QUOTE]
Alexandra,
I am responding to you here simply out of courtesy. Your post suffers from translation problems, so I do not wish to go in to great detail, but even so, it seems to me that you have made assumptions about what I mean (which I did not write), and then you have run with you inaccurate assumptions, and eventually you win an argument with yourself. For what it is worth, I find it a bit obnoxious and annoying when you do that, and tend to want to snap back at you, but I have learned over the years that doing so is a waste of time. I think the problem is partially due to the differences in language, i.e., we may not disagree at all if we were speaking the same language.
You and I have been on this board forever… I don’t think we ever agree on much. I have seen what you breed, and read how you feel about the horses you and your group like. When you are discussing objective facts, I find your posts to be of interest and value. When you are gossiping, or pushing your friend’s horses, I sometimes find what you say contradictory and naïve.
I respect that you know your country and your market, and I would offer that I know mine. I am as open to your potshots at our society ( e.g., “ … it seems to be very easy and often done in the US society to make others responsible for the own actions”), as you would be if I were to make sweeping generalizations about your countrymen. Even if there is a kernel of truth, sometimes it’s best to keep these types of opinions private. Anyway… Merry Christmas… Happy New Year to you and yours.
Anyway… Merry Christmas… Happy New Year to you and yours.