Spinoff: What Breed was the Most Aggressive Dog You've Ever Met?

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=skipollo;7227049]
Boston Terrier. I was pet sitting for a woman who had an old Border Collie and a middle aged Boston. I was trying to move the dog over so I could sit on the couch, and I started out asking nicely. He refused and got crabby. I went to give his collar a tug, got crabbier. He ended up growling and snapping at me. That dog got his hiney paddled and never tried that again.

He really wasn’t that bad in comparison to other people’s horror stories, but he was still a nasty little guy.[/QUOTE]

This sequence of events could have been improved.

If a dog “gets crabby”, it can be experienced as confrontational to reach for its collar and that does not generally lead to a positive series of events… Yes, you can get away with it if it is a little dog, but I wonder what would have happened if you had done something different…rung the doorbell? Somehow gotten him off the couch of his own accord, then sat down and thought about how you might deal with this in the future, in terms of your relationship, and managing that specific situation?

Of course you state this dog never did that again, which is great…but never did it to you, or to anyone else? What about the owners?

Many times, a dog trainer or outside person can do something with no evident repercussions, because the dog does not actually view them as a “pack/family member”, but the behavior may persist with family members.

[RPM]

Little white fluffy dogs that used to be call “Spitz” back when I was a kid. The last time I saw a dog show I think they were being called American Eskimo Dogs (the mid-size model). I knew 2 of them when I was a kid. Yappy, vicious little things. To this day I get nervous when I go somewhere and find one there …

[MustangSavvy]

[QUOTE=skipollo;7227049]
Boston Terrier. I was pet sitting for a woman who had an old Border Collie and a middle aged Boston. I was trying to move the dog over so I could sit on the couch, and I started out asking nicely. He refused and got crabby. I went to give his collar a tug, got crabbier. He ended up growling and snapping at me. That dog got his hiney paddled and never tried that again.

He really wasn’t that bad in comparison to other people’s horror stories, but he was still a nasty little guy.[/QUOTE]

I would have tried to bit you as well. He gave you VERY polite warnings. He growled and then snapped. That is perfectly fine and I would rather see that then a dog that just bites without warning. He wasn’t a “nasty little guy” you may want to take a look at your actions that led up to that.

[grayarabpony]

I just can’t believe the crap I read on these forums. :lol:

By God if I want a dog to move it better move, and I’m not going to worry about EXACTLY I ask the dog to do it. If the dog is very old and arthritic then of course gentle maneuvering is required. The argument that a dog will escalate to biting without warning is a false one, unless the dog has absolutely no respect for you or is indeed an SOB.

I haven’t been around hardly any nasty dogs, and that’s because the owners expected the dog to have manners and backed up their expectations with actions. Our family has had many small and toy breed dogs – recently noted on these forums for often being aggressive – and they loved people.

[MustangSavvy]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7228713]
I just can’t believe the crap I read on these forums. :lol:

By God if I want a dog to move it better move, and I’m not going to worry about EXACTLY I ask the dog to do it. If the dog is very old and arthritic then of course gentle maneuvering is required. The argument that a dog will escalate to biting without warning is a false one, unless the dog has absolutely no respect for you or is indeed an SOB.

I haven’t been around hardly any nasty dogs, and that’s because the owners expected the dog to have manners and backed up their expectations with actions. Our family has had many small and toy breed dogs – recently noted on these forums for often being aggressive – and they loved people.[/QUOTE]

That is not a false one, dogs who are scolded for growling and/or snapping will eventually go to just biting without warning. You are clearly in the old hat aspect of dog training though, so I would not expect you to understand that.

My dogs get of the couch when I ask them, because I taught them with respect and kindness. They have manners because again I taught them with kindness, respect and understanding.

[grayarabpony]

Not false at all. You just don’t know any better and are making a sweeping generalization based on false assumptions. Growling and snapping IS a way for a dog to put you in your place. Not acceptable in my house. So I TRAIN the dog, and that begins with the dog respecting me, not just getting a treat.

Some current dog trainers just thank the dog for growling and then they wave their hands and say “omg, the dog is aggressive!” They either stuff the dog full of treats or suggest euthanasia. Perhaps there really isn’t much hope for aggressive dogs, but the current methods certainly don’t seem to be any better than the old ones. I dunno, I haven’t dealt with an aggressive dog because our family always nipped that sort of behavior in the bud.

My dog got off the couch because I said so. lol Sometimes the dog just has to do what you say, whether they want to or not, just like kids and horses. Guess what she loved me to pieces.

The funniest thing about this is that people are criticizing something that worked. The dog didn’t growl at her again and didn’t bite her either.

[MustangSavvy]

She doesn’t live with the dog, how could she possibly see the effects on that dog as the pet sitter only? After a week or whatever she went on her happy way and let the dogs guardians deal with the issues.

Positive reinforcement trainers are not saying thanks for growling, you clearly know very little about what actual dog trainers are doing these days. Not true at… wow. We are not just giving dogs treats, it is far far more then that. You may want to learn about something instead of just blatantly saying things that are not true.

http://www.michaelbaugh.com/2011/06/17/the-truth-about-canine-aggression/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-NBJfZM_RY

[grayarabpony]

Ahem, what matters is how the dog acts with HER. The dog may still growl at other people. What the heck? Dogs don’t all act the same with different people. If the owners didn’t put up with the behavior either the dog would not act like that at all.

I find a model of negative reinforcement for negative behavior and positive reinforcement to be very effective and so have tons of dog owners. Parents and horse owners too, for that matter. At least I’m not flummoxed by what to do about a dog that gets out of line, which I’ve seen a lot of on this forum. If anyone says, you should correct that behavior, more than one person will say “but that’s so mean!”, while saying the dog is frightened, and then not really presenting a solution. Or say the dog is just dangerous and should be put down. Who knows, maybe the dog does need to be put down, but I don’t see a common sense approach being implemented first. Maybe no one ever taught the dog that the behavior is unacceptable, in a direct way that the dog can understand.

As far as the link, pointing too often to the fear factor is tiresome. Sooo many people say the dog must have been abused when what the dog really needs is a secure social framework. Sort of like assuming that a head shy horse must have been beaten around the head, when that’s not the problem at all. I’m speaking of dogs being aggressive towards people.

OK I’m done here. Not really interested in continuing to go back and forth.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7229277]

I find a model of negative reinforcement for negative behavior and positive reinforcement to be very effective and so have tons of dog owners. [/QUOTE]

All due respect, this is a very common mistake as far as definitions in learning theory.

The “paddling of the hiney” was not negative reinforcement, it was punishment.

Negative reinforcement means taking something aversive away…an example would be the ear pinch in training a retrieve (I am not advocating this!). The ear is pinched, until the dog opens its mouth (to vocalize in pain), immediately the handler lets go of the ear and the dumbbell is slipped in. The animal learns to do something in order to turn off the aversive stimulus. That is negative reinforcement.

In punishment, an aversive consequence is added which results in stopping behavior, i.e., the hiney is paddled, or whatever aversive stimulus is applied that inhibits behavior.

I have no problem, philosophically, with the use of punishment, with humans, dogs, horses, or whatever. However! It frequently has unintended consequences.

It must be applied at the correct time, and the correct intensity and duration. It should be associated with the act, rather than the location, person administering it, whatever the animal is standing on, looking at, or hearing.

Punishment can be very powerful, but can easily have unintended consequences.

It is much more difficult to teach people how to use punishment effectively, without unintended consequences, than it is to teach people how to use positive reinforcement.

[Houndhill]

Another thought…humans can fall into the trap of being bullies when it comes to trying to influence the behavior of other organisms. We may feel we get away with it when talking small dogs, but try it with a dolphin, killer whale, or zoo animal…all of which have been trained to an incredible degree with positive reinforcement.

That said, yes I believe our dogs need limits, boundaries, etc as do our horses, children and spouses…but how these are conveyed and expressed is a very individual matter.

Some are “hiney paddlers” of their own or other’s animals, while others may see this as problematic.

[vacation1]

I’m not a fan of explanations for why a dog bites or threatens; they just can’t. Period. So the idea that the dog gave the earlier poster a “polite” warning just annoys me - there’s nothing polite about essentially saying “Yeah, this is my couch so if you touch it I’ll attack.” But I wouldn’t escalate by trying to tug him off by the collar because that’s just forcing a confrontation that isn’t worth having. The earlier person said it worked; she was lucky. A lot of dogs get their first taste of a real bite in that scenario, and it’s needless. A dog that growls at me about the couch isn’t getting on furniture for a long, cold time. His immediate future will be one of bleak, boring, foodless and lonely exile in the garage or yard. But he isn’t getting an opening to learn even worse behavior, or to learn that hysterical aggression is a choice.

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7229361]
Another thought…humans can fall into the trap of being bullies when it comes to trying to influence the behavior of other organisms. We may feel we get away with it when talking small dogs, but try it with a dolphin, killer whale, or zoo animal…all of which have been trained to an incredible degree with positive reinforcement.[/QUOTE]

That’s one thing I got from horses - I realized I was being an ass to my dog because I could (aka, she doesn’t outweigh me and when she freaks out, she can’t accidentally kill me) and if I was going to treat someone else’s horse with consideration, I should probably start applying that to my own animal. Once I started doing that - just little stuff, like giving her an extra second to back up or turn around in an awkward spot, putting her collar on slower - I started noticing how rushed and harsh people can be with dogs, always moving on our speed, not allowing for the differences between a tall biped and a long quadroped.

[paulaedwina]

RE: That’s one thing I got from horses - I realized I was being an ass to my dog because I could (aka, she doesn’t outweigh me and when she freaks out, she can’t accidentally kill me) and if I was going to treat someone else’s horse with consideration, I should probably start applying that to my own animal. Once I started doing that - just little stuff, like giving her an extra second to back up or turn around in an awkward spot, putting her collar on slower - I started noticing how rushed and harsh people can be with dogs, always moving on our speed, not allowing for the differences between a tall biped and a long quadroped.

I’ve come a long way in being aware of these things too. A couple weeks ago the horses at the barn were freaked out because a hot air balloon came over really low to land in a nearby field, and the long horns were moved to a paddock close by and visible. Fella was beside himself and wouldn’t walk past the paddock with the long horns.

I was getting pretty pissed off. I was in a hurry, there was clearly nothing to worry about, and he was just being a pill. I was pretty much ready to whip him past the longhorns so we could get tacked up.

Then I stopped myself.

1. I wasn’t having any fun
2. He wasn’t having any fun
3. There was absolutely no reason to force the issue.
4. If I gave him some time he’d sort it out and walk past, but I didn’t have any time.

So I put him back in his field and resolved to deal with the long horns on another afternoon when I would have the time to do it properly. Mind you I was still pissed off because I wouldn’t get my ride, but I didn’t take it out on my horse.

The next day I had more time, stuck a bunch of mints in my pocket and went out to get him -fully prepared to take as much time to get us past the longhorns.

It wasn’t necessary. He was fine.

So I completely hear what you’re saying about how we can be thoughtless in our treatment of animals.

Paula

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=vacation1;7229778]

That’s one thing I got from horses - I realized I was being an ass to my dog because I could (aka, she doesn’t outweigh me and when she freaks out, she can’t accidentally kill me) and if I was going to treat someone else’s horse with consideration, I should probably start applying that to my own animal. Once I started doing that - just little stuff, like giving her an extra second to back up or turn around in an awkward spot, putting her collar on slower - I started noticing how rushed and harsh people can be with dogs, always moving on our speed, not allowing for the differences between a tall biped and a long quadroped.[/QUOTE]

That is very cool.

[cowboymom]

When I meet encounters with my horses I tend to think well crap I’m not afraid and here we go. Do you have any idea what horses are capable of getting past when they trust and obey their person? Railroads, war, bombs, bullets, bulls, cows… If your demeanor tells them to raise the issue, they do. If your demeanor tells them come with me, they do. It might need a discussion but end all, they do what’s asked. Horses are followers and if they aren’t doing what’s asked it’s a leadership question, not anything else.

I really think your mind tells them-I’m not only sure this won’t hurt us but we’re going to go. I wouldn’t have been to half the places in the wilderness that I’ve been to if I opted to stop and give treats instead.

As far as a dog growling at me on the couch-no to that too. Little dog gets swept off, big dog gets dragged. It’s like kids coming up with a reason not to go to bed. All good ideas but no.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7229361]
Another thought…humans can fall into the trap of being bullies when it comes to trying to influence the behavior of other organisms. We may feel we get away with it when talking small dogs, but try it with a dolphin, killer whale, or zoo animal…all of which have been trained to an incredible degree with positive reinforcement.

That said, yes I believe our dogs need limits, boundaries, etc as do our horses, children and spouses…but how these are conveyed and expressed is a very individual matter.

Some are “hiney paddlers” of their own or other’s animals, while others may see this as problematic.[/QUOTE]

When am I going to live/ work with a dolphin or zoo animal, which are not domesticated animals anyway?

Horses sure as heck are not small.

Vacation, throwing your dog outside after he growls at you is a slow and needlessly difficult way to show the dog the consequences of his actions. Besides, how would you get him off the couch? Wait for him to jump off? Entice him with a treat? Push him from behind?

Why not just be the leader.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7229361]
Another thought…humans can fall into the trap of being bullies when it comes to trying to influence the behavior of other organisms. We may feel we get away with it when talking small dogs, but try it with a dolphin, killer whale, or zoo animal…all of which have been trained to an incredible degree with positive reinforcement.

That said, yes I believe our dogs need limits, boundaries, etc as do our horses, children and spouses…but how these are conveyed and expressed is a very individual matter.

Some are “hiney paddlers” of their own or other’s animals, while others may see this as problematic.[/QUOTE]

When am I going to live/ work with a dolphin or zoo animal, which are not domesticated animals anyway?

Horses sure as heck are not small.

Vacation, throwing your dog outside after he growls at you is a slow and needlessly difficult way to show the dog the consequences of his actions. Besides, how would you get him off the couch? Wait for him to jump off? Entice him with a treat? Push him from behind?

Why not just be the leader. Being a leader doesn’t mean you are inconsiderate to the animal.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7229320]
All due respect, this is a very common mistake as far as definitions in learning theory.

The “paddling of the hiney” was not negative reinforcement, it was punishment.

Negative reinforcement means taking something aversive away…an example would be the ear pinch in training a retrieve (I am not advocating this!). The ear is pinched, until the dog opens its mouth (to vocalize in pain), immediately the handler lets go of the ear and the dumbbell is slipped in. The animal learns to do something in order to turn off the aversive stimulus. That is negative reinforcement.

In punishment, an aversive consequence is added which results in stopping behavior, i.e., the hiney is paddled, or whatever aversive stimulus is applied that inhibits behavior.

I have no problem, philosophically, with the use of punishment, with humans, dogs, horses, or whatever. However! It frequently has unintended consequences.

It must be applied at the correct time, and the correct intensity and duration. It should be associated with the act, rather than the location, person administering it, whatever the animal is standing on, looking at, or hearing.

Punishment can be very powerful, but can easily have unintended consequences.

It is much more difficult to teach people how to use punishment effectively, without unintended consequences, than it is to teach people how to use positive reinforcement.[/QUOTE]

And here I was trying to be all politically correct by not using the dreaded “p” word. Really, they are not that different.

Using punishment as a training tool isn’t THAT difficult. It doesn’t have to be used often either, but can be the best approach in certain situations.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7229884]
When am I going to live/ work with a dolphin or zoo animal, which are not domesticated animals anyway?[/QUOTE]

The idea is that, precisely because these are not domesticated animals, you cannot bully them or force them into compliance. However, amazing and reliable results are possible with these animals using positive reinforcement, and this has been literally life saving as far as husbandry in zoos. You can teach an animal to present for a blood draw, hoof trim, etc, so that the animal is not stressed by these procedures. You can teach dolphins, seals, etc very complicated routines that they perform quite reliably.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7229895]

Using punishment as a training tool isn’t THAT difficult. It doesn’t have to be used often either, but can be the best approach in certain situations.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but actually it may be more difficult than you might imagine to teach people to use the proper timing, intensity, and precision necessary, and it can result in getting people bitten if it is used incorrectly.

[shakeytails]

In my experience:

Most aggressive toward people: Chows. Maybe I’ve never met a good one, but I get the impression that most have an unstable,unpredictable temperament.

Most aggressive toward other animals: Boxers, followed by terriers. My Shar-pei had a wicked prey drive, too, but at least they were predictable about it…they wouldn’t be “friends” with a cat one minute and kill it the next.