Degenerative Spondylolisthesis- grade 1- with leg numbness. So far pain meds (including gabapentin), PT have not worked. Next is an epidural. If that doesn’t work doc has suggested surgery to stabilize spine (using hardware)- which per doc would preclude activities such as horseback riding and snow skiing. Anyone have this condition or know someone who does?
I was diagnosed with spondylolisthesis about 20 years ago, and, while I did not have full leg numbness, I had considerable pain because I have three discs involved and one bulges. I was told by one orthopedic doc that I should have back surgery with plate insert, when I saw the insert I said no way. Then he told me I needed steroid injections in 19 points, I said no way and went to find another doc. This surgeon suggested that I try exercise therapy, and I opted also to have other therapies done, but since that diagnosis I have been successful in not ever having surgery. I am 58 years old, I swim, I ride, I bicycle, and up until about 6 years ago I was working full time with dressage and racehorses as a groom and trainer’s assistant. Get a second opinion and try to find a doctor who will help you get the proper kinds of exercise and other therapy.
Calamber, that’s pretty amazing. Did the pain go away or did you find a way to deal with it? How much slippage did you have? If you would prefer to pm that would be fine. Thanks!!!
Actually, the severe pain went away, I have some stiffness but I have had a lot of PT. I also do have to be careful as some things can bring back the pain but I know how to manage it, and I don’t mean with medication. I don’t know how much slippage, I was just told that the disc was impinging on the spinal cord. When the doctor first told me to exercise I thought he was nuts because I could not walk up steps without pain.
The first thing I did was to go to the gym, 20 minutes on treadmill, 20 on bike, not a recumbent, and 20 on a stairmaster. I did that everyday except weekends for months. At first I went to the hot tub after the workouts but that was before I knew what I was doing. After I learned better I went to ice then heat. I also have used ultrasound for therapy, a hydraulic bed that lengthened my spine, followed by ice and a TENS. I used a bed that ran rollers down my back and I learned a lot of floor exercises to strengthen muscles and particularly my core. Your family member has to be under a physical therapists direction for the exercises. Do not try Pilates until they are much better and under medical direction. And of course, I have to pay attention to my diet and staying hydrated. I also have Lyme and was heavy metal poisoned, chelation therapy for a year much later after the back problems first emerged. The other therapy I really love is a system developed by the Jones Institute. If you can find a skilled and very experienced practitioner in your area I would definitely try that.
If you have more questions feel free to ask. If you prefer to pm me that’s fine.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7621014]
I was diagnosed with spondylolisthesis about 20 years ago, and, while I did not have full leg numbness, I had considerable pain because I have three discs involved and one bulges. I was told by one orthopedic doc that I should have back surgery with plate insert, when I saw the insert I said no way. Then he told me I needed steroid injections in 19 points, I said no way and went to find another doc. This surgeon suggested that I try exercise therapy, and I opted also to have other therapies done, but since that diagnosis I have been successful in not ever having surgery. I am 58 years old, I swim, I ride, I bicycle, and up until about 6 years ago I was working full time with dressage and racehorses as a groom and trainer’s assistant. Get a second opinion and try to find a doctor who will help you get the proper kinds of exercise and other therapy.[/QUOTE]
I have it in my cervical spine. I didn’t know what was making my arms bilaterally numb when I slept until I had an MRI and saw the compression of my spine. I monitor nerves during decompression surgeries. I knew what the surgical intervention was. I also knew what kind of a difference it makes when you strengthen your muscles to support your spine. Yes, you can really change your entire life by getting strong. Yoga, bicycling, rowing, gym, pilates, can make you go from crippled to strong.
My once-fiance had three auto accidents, shattering his lumbar spine, one after the other and refused rods and plates. I did have them clean out the bits of bone and decompress, but no mechanics. He walked for a year in abrace, went to the gym, got really strong abs, etc. etc. and found a PT who would work with him. The way he put it was, doc, if I was a multimillion dollar football player with a golden carreer ahead of me, how you would handle this injury? He was told that the football athlete would come to him in great shape to begin with, but hge would have PT three times a day, walk a mile morning and night, told him what he would have him do. Said, are you willing to do that? Yes, said the once-fiance, so he did. He’s great. Strong, healthy, has to keep strong to stay healthy, but hey.
I realized tha my cervical compression is from sitting in low chairs looking up at a computer secreen all day. I changed my chair so I am looking down, practic e my “ballet neck” by stretching it, keep up with yoga, am very strong, and hold myself differently at the steering wheel of the car. The symptoms showed up in 2007, stayed around until 2009, and I spent 2 years changing my body and my symptoms dissapeared by 2011.
I had an MRI in 2009 where you could see the cervical spinal cord compressed from the front, looked like someone was pinching a worm at c3, and c4. MRI today you can barely see the compression at all. Obviously, my therapy changed my body and worked.
Good luck.
That is wonderful Kate. I am slipping a good bit with my workouts and am feeling it now. Always hard to get restarted but so worth the work.
Thanks to the both of you. I am hoping that things will improve. 2 weeks of PT did not seem to make a difference but there is likely more that can be done. We are hoping for the best.
I am 67 and was diagnosed with Grade III in 2009. I rode until 2008.
My most recent “crawl on my hands and knees” episode was in April when the MRI’s showed two bulging discs and a pinched nerve.
The neurosurgeon said my back is so trashed, I would need surgery from top to what’s left of the bottom and it would “be too excrutiating even for me to tolerate”.
Physical therapy helped immensely. We are blessed to have a fantastic PT group in town. They showed me home exercises and I have managed to mimic some of their very expensive equipment on the home level at affordable prices.
Lidoderm patches help a lot, so do extra strength Excedrin.
No prescription pain pills for me as number one, they don’t do anything for me, number two I stand the chance of getting popped DUI if I were to get pulled over by the mohlisha.
I haven’t ridden for several years because all these maladies wear me out. By the time I’m done with barn chores, brushing horses, etc., I am too exhausted to haul a horse somewhere to ride. Riding around the pasture or a round pen just is not my cup of tea – I am a diehard “go where no man has gone before” trail rider:)
regarding surgery, I would not have surgery, even if the neurosurgeon would have recommended it. All the professionals agree I am will stay held together with muscle as long as I can keep getting to the barn.
I don’t hump hay anymore and I have to bucket part of a full bucket of water out, if it’s more than half full but that’s the price I pay for having too much fun re-schooling Widomakers and rough riding snowmobiles when I was young.
My husband has it. In a desperate attempt to avoid surgery, he took up yoga 8 years ago and he only has back pain now if he overdoes it.
I’ve got it…and was told in my twenties to quit riding and have surgery. I did neither and became a trainer. And Salsa dancer. And Tango dancer. And rock climber (not for a while now)…
Staying active is best for me, sitting around makes it hurt. Riding WELL is good for it. For a while in my thirties I was pretty crooked in the saddle and that was NOT good. Getting straighter and getting my core engaged helped a lot.
Sometimes I have some muscle tension in that area and get acupuncture.
Thanks for all of your input. It really sucks. The area of the spine is L5 S1 (the vertebrae right above the pelvis has slipped forward. He can ride a bike (makes it feel better) but standing and walking for more than 15 min results in debilitating pain (and this is a very stoic person). He is also experiencing leg/foot numbness. Last time he tried to ride, his leg/foot went numb within 10 minutes and he experienced increased pain. I have done some research on the internet and it looks like the minimally invasive spine surgery could work, preferably done by a neurosurgeon at UCSF (University of California San Francisco) who is a specialist in this area. From what I can gather- if the spine had to be stabilized, fusion would be better than hardware (more sturdy) A friend of mine also has this condition and has found some relief with chiro but is planning for surgery.
He might want to try strengthening his back and core muscles to see if he can get relief that way (that’s why my husband does yoga). Two weeks is not nearly enough time to build enough strength to make a determination. My husband’s cousin is a neurosurgeon, and he advised my husband to only consider surgery after exhausting all other options. I’ve never met anyone yet that just had one back surgery. Fusions put strain on the discs above and below and before you know it you are having them fixed too.
UCSF is excellent, so he is in good hands. As a critical care RN with spondylolosthesis, 2 fusion surgeries, I can relate. The standard of care is to try palliative measures first. Diagnostic workup to include xrays, CT scan, MRI. Core strengthening, ice, Williams position when supine, Biofreeze gel, back brace for stability, pain meds, muscle relaxer, low dose steroids to relieve inflammation (maybe), blood work to determine RA factor and HLAB27. Also look at SI joints to determine whether ankylosis is present as ankylosing spondylitis is more common in males. PT in a swimming pool versus land is beneficial in a lot of cases.
They try the less invasive measures first. Spinal injections will help to relieve nerve inflammation as that is what causes the pain. Bone does not have nerves. Typically they are given every 3-4 months in hopes of some relief. Surgery is usually the last resort. Bear in mind that fusing vertebrae with hardware stabilizes the spine and prevents it from slipping, but the physical load shifts and is then shared with SI joints and the vertebrae above the fusion. It is not unusual to see discs wear above the fusion.
There are many people who have fusions and still ride once their fusion takes (bone is laid down). It is based on an individual response to course of treatment. Spinal fusion surgery is not a quick fix and all other measures should be explored. Surgery is usually a last resort.
Relax the Back stores and online have an excellent choice of back braces. If the insurance covers it, you can have the MD prescribe one. TENS units can also help as they work to diffuse muscle spasms (by Rx also).
I have dealt with this for years and have had 2 fusions, the second with rods, plates and screws. I exhausted all the above before entering into surgery. Yoga is a great idea, along with massage or chiropractic care if allowed. Make sure all the diagnostics have been done and proceed with caution. I hope he feels better soon!
OP, there are different things that do help but, they take time to do them and some cost money:cry:
- Spinal decompression honestly does help. Mr. WTW has a teeter board but I have vertigo and go into a major panic attack the second that thing starts to swing me upside down.
1.1 I used what I called a Medieval Torture rack at the PT place. It pulls you in two directions with a set amount of pressure (mine was 45 pounds). I have a Mini-Me version of that table at home.
But those are things he needs to get the ok from a professional and be shown the proper way to use them.
- I am going back to my chiropractor this Monday (tomorrow).
My pelvis slips forward and never stays in place. He pushes it back into place, a little at a time, with what I call a mini jack hammer.
I lay on my back and he pushes thru my stomach. It works miracles. Sometimes I am sick to my stomach the next day, sometimes not but my back always feels a lot better and there’s a lot less pain.
- The numbness in the legs is from the nerve pinching between the discs. I have had numbness in both legs to where I couldn’t walk without crutches for a few minutes. It is a horrible sensation, I feel for him:(
What seems to help me, when that numbness strikes, is to sit in this computer chair. It’s a high backed/swivel with arms office chair that I bought at an office supply place. It has an adjustable seat for height.
There isn’t another chair or couch in the house that works to make the numbness go away - just this computer chair. 10 -15 minutes is all I need.
Fusion - that has not been suggested to me but the neurosurgeon did say my back has fused itself in two places. Fine by me, now if this pinched nerve would take a hike, I could get back to the awkward normalcy I’ve become used to. It still beats the alternatives of wheel chairs or nursing homes:eek:
Take a look at this thread - my story is post is #5. I also had spondylolisthesis, no relief with PT or injections. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?299601-Spinal-Fusion-surgery
After 2 fusions, (L5-S1 and L4-L5… both with screws & rods placed), plus an additional surgery to remove hardware… Yes, I still ride. I wax my car. I stack firewood. 
If your family member’s doctor is suggesting that a fusion with hardware would stop him from riding, etc… get another opinion.
I had a different surgeon for each surgery and all three encouraged me to ride once I was healed. All wanted me off a horse for a full year.
Also… If it comes down to surgery, get multiple opinions first, from both a neurosurgeon & an orthopedic surgeon that only does spine work. I’ve been operated on by 2 neurosurgeons & 1 ortho… I strongly feel that neurosurgeons are more meticulous. YMMV.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. Best of luck!
Taryn
I have a feeling this may be one of the words I hear from the neurosurgeon today. Do you have a herniation with the vertebral displacement as well?
I’ve already had two microdiscectomies at L5/S1, and was warned any further failures at the site would require a fusion. L4/L5 had a 3mm bulge and disc disease prior to the surgeries; I was concerned the trauma just below it would destabilize it. A year after my second surgery, it was still stable. But the MRI I had two days ago show (to my experienced but not professional eye) the bulge is now a protrusion of about 5-6mm, with the vertebrae slipping back over L5/S1 about 5mm. I have sharp pain in my hip, but compared to the hell I went through prior to my microdiscs, it’s minor.
Those of you with leg numbness, was it numb to touch, like you’ve had local anesthesia? I have numbness in my lower right leg, but it’s a numbness to temperature only (touch me with ice, and I feel the touch, but not the cold). Also, lately I get these random feelings that my right leg is cold and wet, to the point where I check thinking I sat in water. Is this something you guys have experienced?
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[QUOTE=Lauruffian;7632648]
Those of you with leg numbness, was it numb to touch, like you’ve had local anesthesia? No; mine is the sensation of the legs going to sleep from the top clear down thru my feetI have numbness in my lower right leg, but it’s a numbness to temperature only (touch me with ice, and I feel the touch, but not the cold).
Also, lately I get these random feelings that my right leg is cold and wet, to the point where I check thinking I sat in water. Is this something you guys have experienced?All the time but, mine is in my left calf. That’s when the Gel-Flex for horses comes out[/QUOTE]
While all the PT and home exercises have helped, the two things that do the most for me:
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The Smart Relief battery operated TENS unit made by the Icy Hot patch people.
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Better than the patch is that I went back to my chiropractor after a three year hiatus. I was sure I could manage this on my own:no:
Afterr reviewing my current MRI’s, he got out his mini jackhammers (one for my neck, the other for my pelvis, and began - lol lol
I haven’t felt this normal since the last time I was at his office three years ago. My back is trashed but it’s my pelvis that refuses to stay in place - it severely affects a lot of things, including that cold/wet sensation in my leg. I haven’t had that sensation since the adjustment.
He said I’ve always had those bulging discs but this time, he feels the nerve got pinched because my pelvis (which has an ancient fracture) tipped a different way this time.
I am hoping I only have to go back twice a month because twice a month is about all I can afford. He’ not at all expensive but this stuff adds up, over time. That being said, I have learned my lesson the hard way – I will go back more than twice monthly, if need be.
I highly recommend a chiropractor but not just any chiro - they are NOT all created equal. I’ve been to several in four states and this fella is at the top of the “A” game, bar none:)
[QUOTE=Lauruffian;7632648]
I have a feeling this may be one of the words I hear from the neurosurgeon today. Do you have a herniation with the vertebral displacement as well?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I had a herniation at L4/L5.
Is the pain in your groin or near your hip bone? True hip pain is felt in the groin. Pain over your hip bone originates from the back. Google “spinal nerve dermatomes” - you’ll see what nerves correspond to what area of the leg/foot.
I have had numbness where I can’t feel my leg at all and it has collapsed when I put weight on it. I have a permanent patch on the outside of one thigh where the feeling is diminished. I do get pins & needles often (not on the patch described). I don’t have any issues with feeling temperature.
Hope this helps!
I want to thank everyone who has responded so far. At present we are awaiting 1st epidural and have a referral for a specialist whom we have heard good things about (at Stanford). It is very frustrating for all concerned. Still biking, using inversion table, and building up core. Also just got a brace to help provide some support. My heart goes out to all of you who deal with these things. I hope that he can return to riding, skiing, and other activities that we both enjoy.
find a sports medicine chiropractor. I tried others, and they never helped. I suffered for years (2009 to 2014) not being able to get up in the AM because of pain, trouble riding b/c of the spasms in my lower back and leg. I was ready to see a surgeon b/c nothing was working. I am a grade 1, almost 2 with a bulging disc that has some breakage. I also have a genetic defect that no one felt the need to tell me about or diagnose until I went to said chiro and showed him MRI results from 2012.
Had a sports medicine chiro recommended to me by a local gym, and he fixed me in 6 sessions. I havent ridden in awhile, and I expect the spasms will never completely go away. But before you go surgery, Id do research on local chiros and call them about your diagnosis and your goals. A good chiro will discuss your options first before doing anything. And they wont try to con you into buying their crap either.
