Squelching a new behavior & potentially bad habit

[Yip]

When pulling the cart away at the end of a drive, Cookie has just begun stepping forward to help.

On days when hubby is here to assist, I will stand at her head and not allow it while he removes the cart.

What can I do when I’m alone? I haven’t tried holding the lines and correcting because I don’t think I have the coordination to do this safely while possibly holding the cart up. And when I pull the cart away, even if she doesn’t move, how would I get rid of the lines?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yip

[gothedistance]

@Yip;4861117

When pulling the cart away at the end of a drive, Cookie has just begun stepping forward to help.

On days when hubby is here to assist, I will stand at her head and not allow it while he removes the cart.

What can I do when I’m alone? I haven’t tried holding the lines and correcting because I don’t think I have the coordination to do this safely while possibly holding the cart up. And when I pull the cart away, even if she doesn’t move, how would I get rid of the lines?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yip

Yes. Don’t leave the horse to pull the cart away. Slip on the halter with a long lead rope. Drap the reins over your arms, and work around the horse to unhitch the traces and the breeching. Move back to stand at the horse’s shoulder, and push the shafts out of the tugs and lower them gently to the ground. Pat the horse, make it stand for a second, then cluck and ask the horse to move forward at your command.

This is the way your should unhitch a cart when you are by yourself.

The other way is to tie the horse up facing a solid wall, then unhitch.

[horsegeeks]

The only thing I can think to add to gothedistance’s suggestions is to possibly use longer driving lines when alone. That way any place you are, you can correct Cookie. (Obviously not too long or that presents its own set of problems)

I basically always unhitched green horses alone by always having a halter underneath their driving bridles (looks tacky … but safety first!) Then I would tie them with a quick release knot. Frankly, I always hitched and unhitched at the same spot … so I just left the leadline in the existing ring.

When the horses were further along, I’d unhitch in the “open”. If they tried to move a quick “whoa” and pressure on the reins always stopped them.

Cookie is early in this behavior, and it won’t take long to correct it.

Good luck!

[Yip]

She is always crosstied at this point. Halter around her neck & bridle still on. She can only take 2 steps forward at most, but it’s enough to potentially cause trouble. Thank you for the suggestions.

This is One Smart Cookie. If she would just stop thinking ALL the time and let her mind wander… No, she’s always trying to think one step ahead and help me. Her constant thinking has forced me to think ahead more quickly & learn a lot more, so it’s not all bad.

Yip

[horsegeeks]

Perhaps changing where Cookie is unhitched … to different locations would help by giving her something slightly different to think about.

Also, I’d consider spending some time putting the cart back on if Cookie took a step forward when you didn’t want her to. After all, being unhitched is a reward. You might even drive her a little bit if Cookie continues to step forward when you don’t want her to.

[hctjudge]

I’m new to driving and the first thing that came to mind is
that they need something in front of them when putting them
to and off the cart.

I drive a miniature mule and had my handyman put a sliding
2X4 (with brackets) on the crosstie posts chest high on the mule and he is crosstied as well. After I get him all hooked up, I remove the crossties then the board and get in the cart.

I drive him back to the same spot and replace the crossties
and board.

I have just crosstied him in back of the trailer when away
from home.

[Thomas_1]

I know I’ve said this before but I really do think you should have an assister with you.

You know my views on driving and putting to single handed but you’re heading for a problem.

Particularly when you and the horse are learning together. Get someone to head the horse and use the word STAND and stay in front and even the slightest foot shuffle, check her and STAND.

No need to hold her but she needs to STAND.

Personally speaking I’d never ever suggest you get the horse to move away from the vehicle UNLESS you’re driving something like some of the stuff I drive: e.g. a landau or road coach with a pair or team and with a pole. Then you remove the pole straps and detach the traces while the horse stands and rather than move the horse forward you turn it and walk it away from the pole.

But for a single horse with shafts, detach the horse and move the vehicle back from the horse and ensure the shafts are well clear and all whilst the horse is standing stock still.

Once the vehicle is off then remove the harness.

[Drive_NJ]

Also check for how well established is her STAND - elsewhere, when not removing the cart

If she is standing and moves her feet - dont just ask for the stand again
get the feet back where they were and then stand

this is something you can also practice when just grooming or otherwise doing ground work
they DO get the point
STAND is still and right here!
Not just another step, and another . . .

[Yip]

But for a single horse with shafts, detach the horse and move the vehicle back from the horse and ensure the shafts are well clear and all whilst the horse is standing stock still.

Once the vehicle is off then remove the harness.

This is exactly how we do it. When hub is home & can leave his office, he helps. Usually I’m alone with no chance of help. There simply isn’t anyone.

NJ, she stands still while grooming & harnessing unless I ask her to move her hips over a bit to straighten up before putting to the cart. She is doing this on purpose at the exact time I pick up the shaft to pull it back, with the idea of helping remove the cart asap.

BUT I am going to practice stand whenever I can just to reinforce the basics anytime I can correct her for moving her feet. I know I can do it before feeding. I send her back a couple steps to wait, and she doesn’t come forward, but she does move her feet then. That would be a good time, and the reward would be my putting her food or hay down.

Thanks, everyone!

Yip

[Thomas_1]

You need to check her “stand” more thoroughly and ensure she’s standing when you tell her and are not just doing the likes of grooming and harnessing etc.

Just stand her in the yard and tell her to stand. No attention. No grooming… just standing. Start with her tied but to be honest I just get them to stand in the middle of the yard with a headcollar on and the rope just hanging. (Albeit I have a small open yard area between the stabling with gates at either end and so the worst they can do is go 150 feet from end to end.)

[Cartfall]

Are you driving her enough to get her tired?

I ask this, because I know when I come in with
Zanzer after a particularly hard work out, he will stand.

If I have not worked him hard, he will want to do what you are experienceing with Cookie.

I hitch with him tied to the stall wall in front of him. When I come in, I drive to the cross ties in my barn, connect them and he has nothing in front of him. The command STAND means exactly what the folks before stated and he knows it. If he gets a ACHT and then a STAND he plants them feet. Just keep at it until she knows exactly what she is supposed to do. I used to make Zanzer stand for time intervals–10 sec, 30 secs, minutes up to 10 minutes until I gave him the release word.etc.

In fact when he gets a bath, I drop the lead rope, give him the STAND command and he will stand for his bath now. Funny, if I tie him to a post, he dances all over the place. go figure. He is really broken to ground tie. Teach your pony to do that!!!

As to hitching out in the open with NOTHING holding you horse, PLEASE, PLEASE do not do that.

Thomas, I envy you having a groom at all times. I wish I had that luxury but as many of us here on this board do not – we would never drive. Sad that would be.

[Yip]

You’re right, I can work on stand even in the backyard. I spend time with them out there almost every evening so we don’t have to mow it. That’s a good and practical idea.

Cartfall, I kind of have to plan my drives more by time available than by what it takes to get Cookie tired. She does seem tired enough after 5-6 miles in an hour. For now, we only trot in places where I can see the open road ahead of us. Hills and curves hamper my vision a lot, so we take the careful way and walk then. But the constant hills are harder work than level road. I often leave her tied up for 45 mins. after returning and she stands really well. I think her idea is, if I take 2 steps forward, I’ll get the cart off 2 seconds quicker. I don’t think it has anything to do with being tired or not. I think it has more to do with her always thinking that created the behavior.

As to hitching out in the open with NOTHING holding you horse, PLEASE, PLEASE do not do that.

She never has a barrier in front of her. But she is always crosstied before going out and upon coming back in.

Finding the perfect place to harness & unharness has eluded me. I had the idea to sink posts for crossties where she’d be facing the house - but there are are 2 waste water lines, one fresh water line to the barn, and the elect. line to the barn all buried behind the house.

I’m using the same place I crosstie to tack for riding but it is more difficult with putting to a cart, due to downhill slope and numerous big roots. I wrote about that last fall when I first began driving. It is harder for me to push the cart wheels over the big roots, but it has actually worked out fine. The crossites are on a big tree and a 4" steel pole that once was used for a clothesline. Neither are going ANYwhere, but they’re only about 6’ apart and I have to untie then drive through them to get into the open yard. I’ve never hit or even come close to brushing them, so it’s ok. When we get a trailer, I’ll be storing the gig cart in there and will then be able to hitch using the trailer as a barrier. BUT I am going to work harder on reinforcing the stand. I think this new behavior is our only issue now. She’s doing so well otherwise.

Thanks, everyone! I am thinking about the responses, and there is nothing to keep me from just placing a sawhorse in front of her when we unhitch. I do want to teach stand perfectly, though.

[sassie_pony]

[QUOTE=Yip;4862135]
She is always crosstied at this point. Halter around her neck & bridle still on. She can only take 2 steps forward at most, but it’s enough to potentially cause trouble. Thank you for the suggestions.

This is One Smart Cookie. If she would just stop thinking ALL the time and let her mind wander… No, she’s always trying to think one step ahead and help me. Her constant thinking has forced me to think ahead more quickly & learn a lot more, so it’s not all bad.

Yip[/QUOTE]

Is it possibly to put the halter on correctly (rather than just around her neck) - either over her bridle or drive her with one under the bridle? (I personally prefer over) I would wonder if not having the halter over her nose is just allowing a bit too much freedom.

[Thomas_1]

You should put a light weight headcollar on under the bridle.

Not over it because it would interfere then with the action of the bridle.

[Yip]

I could do that. It would engage on her face before engaging on her neck if she tries to step up. Good idea!.

Is there any reason not to use a very lightweight and flexible rope halter? I have one already and don’t think it would interfere with the adjustment or feel of the bridle.

[Cartfall]

That comment about not having something holding you horse was not meant for you. Cross ties aren;t the best but they are better than you, your horse and cart out in an open area.

I have seen folks put their horse in a stand command, no one holding the horse and they walk back and get the cart. That scares the heck out of me.

As to the halter–do you use one with the buckle on the top of the nose? It can be taken off real quick or is light enough to go under your bridle.

You can also get a gullet strap to go on your bridle. It is a strap that attaches the throat latch strap to the noseband. It has a ring on it so it turns your bridle into a bridle halter.

http://www.thecarriagehouse.com/products.html scroll down they are abou 9 bucks or so.

[sassie_pony]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4867982]
You should put a light weight headcollar on under the bridle.

Not over it because it would interfere then with the action of the bridle.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t meaning to ‘drive’ her with the headcollar over the bridle. If the headcollar was staying on for the drive then it would, of course,be under the bridle.

[sassie_pony]

[QUOTE=Cartfall;4869564]

You can also get a gullet strap to go on your bridle. It is a strap that attaches the throat latch strap to the noseband. It has a ring on it so it turns your bridle into a bridle halter.

http://www.thecarriagehouse.com/products.html scroll down they are abou 9 bucks or so.[/QUOTE]

These converters are intended to keep your bridle from accidentally being pulled off or flicked off over the ears of your horse. Not meant as a conversion from a bridle to a halter.
I would never ever use one of these to tie my horse up with! Unless I have someone reliable to hold the horse, I always put a headstall (with buckle-up nose) over the bridle to tie up.

Scenario:
Horse has bridle set up with conversion piece in place. Driver ties horse up and goes to remove cart. Horse pulls back. BRIDLE Head-piece/cheek-piece snaps - Horse loose with cart still attached but now no bridle.

[hobbyhorse23]

[QUOTE=Yip;4866900]
I think her idea is, if I take 2 steps forward, I’ll get the cart off 2 seconds quicker. I don’t think it has anything to do with being tired or not. I think it has more to do with her always thinking that created the behavior.[/QUOTE]
Yip, you’re thinking too much just like your horse! :lol: I’ve got a clever gelding like this and the trick is to reply in their own language. If she’s doing it to get the cart off two seconds quicker, than prove to her that moving makes the cart stay on two seconds longer. She’ll quit very fast!

If it were me, every time she steps forward as I lift the shafts I’d say “Ahht!” and set the shafts back in the tugs. Make her stand quietly and after a few moments to get your point across say “whoa” and start to lift the shafts again. If she moves, put her back and reinforce “Whoa.” Wait longer, then try once more to lift the shafts. She’ll probably stay by then but if not repeat more firmly and for longer until she stands as you lift the shafts. Praise and remove the cart immediately as a reward. Smart horses get this sort of thing very quickly! No fuss, no muss, no sawhorses.

@Cartfall;4869564

I have seen folks put their horse in a stand command, no one holding the horse and they walk back and get the cart. That scares the heck out of me.

As long as the horse is not yet hitched and all the harness is properly tucked up I don’t see this as any worse than ground-tying a good Western horse. The worst you have is a loose horse with blinders on! Once the shafts are in the tugs or coming anywhere near them though those lines had better be in your hands.

@sassie_pony;4870243

These converters are intended to keep your bridle from accidentally being pulled off or flicked off over the ears of your horse. Not meant as a conversion from a bridle to a halter.

I was told by one manufacturer that gullet straps were how horses were originally tied up in the days of horse-and-buggy and hitching rails.

[QUOTE=sassie_pony;4870243]Scenario:
Horse has bridle set up with conversion piece in place. Driver ties horse up and goes to remove cart. Horse pulls back. BRIDLE Head-piece/cheek-piece snaps - Horse loose with cart still attached but now no bridle. [/QUOTE]
Okay, I have to admit the idea of that happening and a hitched horse being loose without a bridle is horrifying and hadn’t occurred (sp?) to me. But at the same time, how weak is that bridle that the cavesson, throatlatch, crownpiece AND cheekpieces all snapped?? The gullet strap and throatlatch, properly fitted, should ensure the bridle can’t go over the ears so something would indeed have to break. If the cavesson and/or throatlatch gave to free the gullet strap the cheekpieces should still be intact, which means the horse has both bit and lines on if the driver had any sense. Grab the reins and stop the horse! I don’t know that I’d use this for a known puller or restless green horse but for temporarily tying an experienced horse to be put-to, yes, I’d use it.

Leia

[Cartfall]

[QUOTE=sassie_pony;4870243]
These converters are intended to keep your bridle from accidentally being pulled off or flicked off over the ears of your horse. Not meant as a conversion from a bridle to a halter.
I would never ever use one of these to tie my horse up with! Unless I have someone reliable to hold the horse, I always put a headstall (with buckle-up nose) over the bridle to tie up.

Scenario:
Horse has bridle set up with conversion piece in place. Driver ties horse up and goes to remove cart. Horse pulls back. BRIDLE Head-piece/cheek-piece snaps - Horse loose with cart still attached but now no bridle.[/QUOTE]

I understand that, but they are a quick clip until I can get a halter over that bridle and cross tie him. Works for me, I am right there with the lines in my hands. I have to agree with horsegeeks on that one.

But horsegeeks, it is just a seriously scary scenario to me seeing a horse with no header while the whip is busy putting the cart on. I know folks do it all the time. The thing that drives that thought is that I have had a bad bad accident at a show. Horse had a header but someone dropped a back gate to one of those utility trailer and spooked the horse. He was half attached to the cart and it all went down hill from there. Header hung on, got dragged, hurt , new car was in the way, I wound up under the carriage before folks got there to help us. So we all do things our own way we feel safer.

Everyone has something–some don;t like 2 wheel carts, some don;t like 4 wheels, some want us to drive with 2 people always, me–never will hitch without something solid in front of or at least on crossties. Just never gonna go there again!!!