Stallion Options for Arabian Mare

[jagarabiansporthorse]

Would love to hear you opinions on the following stallions for an Arabian mare!

We are absolutely in love with Sir Wanabi for our Arabian mare for a 2019 or 2020 foal. Any positives or negatives you would like to share?

Other options that we’ve considered are:

Balta Czar
Amazing
Legaczy
Cunningham
Cartier R (more local stallion)

We love Sir Wannabi’s suspension that a lot of the hunter stallions don’t have; however, I don’t think I was able to find a trotting video of Balta Czar or Cunningham. I did see Cunningham in person a couple weeks ago at his farm and he was stunning! I’m not sure if the other 3 stallions are modern/refined enough for a compact, but bigger boned Arabian mare. I can only tell so much through photos or video. Would love any additional recommendations you may have! I have looked at Vallado aka Praise - I need to go back and see why he wasn’t on my top list…

A little on the mare: CA Destiny Gro+ (*Grojor x Satanca) flashy, big boned, 15.1hh purebred Spanish/Polish/Swedish bred mare trained up to solid 2nd level, auto lead changes and was schooling piaffe/passage when in full time training. She uses herself well over fences with good scope and don’t want to lose that. If we don’t breed her, we will breed her daughter in 2021/2022 after she has been campaigned. Her daughter, JAG Dekadence, is a *Dakar El Jamaal and Desperado V grandaughter. She is much smaller at only 14.3hh (sire was very refined and 15hh) and much lighter boned.

We would only do local circuit hunter shows (pre-adult 2’6" up to 3’ adult division), a very occasional C or A USHJA show, USDF shows at maximum 3rd level, and Arabian shows including Sport Horse Nationals. Would love to produce something at least 15.3hh if not 16hh (though we know that’s not a guarantee) and a stallion throwing a less sensitive/more quiet temperament. Although both mares are sweet, Des can be marish and a little forward. Des is compact and has good hind end use so looking for a little more length of leg and neck without losing the ability to collect. Both have good feet and we would like to continue that trend. My sister showed Des extensively when she was a youth rider.

Please see photos of her at: http://jagarabiansporthorses.pixieset.com/cadestinygro/

Unfortunately no professional photos, but hopefully going to get some this spring. I’ll put together an album for her daughter later this weekend. I also do have an in hand, barefoot video of Des I need to find!

Thanks for your input or feedback!

[TrueColours]

All of the stallions you are considering I think would cross really really well with an Arab mare. Which one you decide to go with, will depend a lot on where they are strong and where she is weaker and what areas you specifically want to improve that they can help with …

I am also going to throw another suggestion into the thought process for you. A new stallion I am standing for 2017 and 2018 - Royal Beach Farao. A 16.3 1/2 Mecklenburg stallion that has shown and won at the GP and World Cup levels in Europe, Canada and the USA under different riders, and then later in his show career, transitioned into the Working Hunter, Hunter Derbies and Adult Eq classes. What makes him really interesting is his dam line goes back to some really lovely Anglo Arabians (which you can really see in his head) so crossed with your mare you are going to really solidify that Arabian elegance and beauty as well …

Have fun in your search!

[jagarabiansporthorse]

TrueColors thank you so much for sharing Royal Beach Farao!! He definitely looks like he could be a match too. Going through his information right now! Thanks again.

[enjoytheride]

I like Saint Sandro who is an approved Oldenburg and Half Arabian.

I also urge you to use caution and research stallion owners as well, as with most things in the horse world, some owners are wacky.

[ladyj79]

Saint Sandro’s owner can be difficult (she is a banned coth member) and he throws a preponderance of clubby feet. He also doesnt have much of a show record and not a great work ethic. His stud fee last I saw it was more than his sire’s–Stedinger’s–stud fee.

I would also say his very cute foals don’t tend to mature as pretty as the stallion.

You can do better.

[sortofbyx]

Saint Sandro’s owner has refused breeder’s certificates based on personal quibbles. She can be quite volatile to deal with.

Additionally, Saint himself has limited to no under saddle show experience. As someone who has ridden the stallion, I can tell you that he tends to lock through the jaw and neck, and resists bending through the ribs. Suppleness is a real struggle for him. This is amplified by his limited experience with qualified riders and trainers- he has very much learned to set his head and avoid coming through his back. I’d be interested to see what he could do at the hands of a professional, but I don’t think he is extraordinary by any means.

He does throw a club foot on about 50% of the foals he produces. This is something to be aware of. Additionally, he seems to put a short neck on quite a few. My favorite cross that I’ve seen (at least as babies) are his foals out of a giant Saddlebred mare. Her neck is literally 3ft long. Those foals seem to have nice proportions, at least as babies.

Another thing that concerns me is that there is no stable type within his pedigree. What is going to come through? His sire, the 17h and quite successful Stedinger? Or the 14h Arab pony? There is no consistency in the genetics to know.

I think for the price of the stud fee, you could certainly choose a more proven, successful sire.

That being said, I did breed my own mare to Saint and liked what he produced. He raised the neck set on the mare, who was a textbook stock type, and laid back her shoulder angle. However I couldn’t tell you what he looks like now, as a yearling.

[enjoytheride]

As I said, do your research. I don’t know as much as some you to trash the stallion (quite tacky) but I thought he looked nice and was a 1/2 arab.

I just thought I’d throw one out there, since the only other suggestion was someone breaking BB rules to advertise their own stallion.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;9010056]
As I said, do your research. I don’t know as much as some you to trash the stallion (quite tacky) but I thought he looked nice and was a 1/2 arab.

I just thought I’d throw one out there, since the only other suggestion was someone breaking BB rules to advertise their own stallion.[/QUOTE]

Wow. You are out of line.

It’s actually quite normal to offer opinions on named stallions.

Breeding is expensive, people want to know the positives and the negatives. Please note the OP specifically asks for positives and negatives.

[TrueColours]

^^^ Exactly. My understanding as well. Especially as the OP stated:

Would love any additional recommendations you may have!

Now - having said this, if the OP poster came on and specifically said they are looking for dressage proven, KWPN stallions under 16hh only - here is my short list and does anyone have any other suggestions - and a Stallion Owner came back with “I have a 16.3hh TB stallion that showed in the jumper ring and was Champion at many shows and oh - he did show at some schooling shows in dressage too” then that can be construed as “advertising” as it doesn’t follow anything the OP has asked for and is looking for …

[GreyDes]

You might try to pm stripes on this board - she has a small breeding program and has had some very nice Arab/Warmblood crosses.

Here’s a foal by Landkonig out of her Arab mare who sold to Tranquility farms (owners of Ovation) as a jumper prospect. http://www.goldenoakarabiansandwarmbloods.com/breeding-program/foals/landinair/

[GreyDes]

You might try to pm stripes on this board - she has a small breeding program and has had some very nice Arab/Warmblood crosses.

Here’s a foal by Landkonig out of her Arab mare who sold to Tranquility farms (owners of Ovation) as a jumper prospect. http://www.goldenoakarabiansandwarmbloods.com/breeding-program/foals/landinair/

[Fred]

I think all the stallions listed in the OP are very nice, and would cross well with an Arab mare.
I have seen Sir Wanabi compete in the AA Hunter division at the Royal Winter Fair, and I was very impressed with him - he was very beautiful, behaved beautifully, and placed well.
I have also seen some of his foals and they are lovely. I know a number of people who have bred to him and they have been very pleased.
In fact, a beautiful A Fine Romance daughter is in foal to him now - very excited to see that baby.
I understand his owner is excellent to work with and semen is excellent.
Plus the stud fee and collection fees are in CDN dollars, and shipping semen to the US from Canada is straightforward.
Disclaimer: I have absolutely no connection to this stallion, or any of the stallions named.

[TrueColours]

You might try to pm stripes on this board - she has a small breeding program and has had some very nice Arab/Warmblood crosses.

I simply adore the WB/Arab crosses! There are several WB stallions out there that do have Arab or Anglo Arab in their pedigrees and it seems to give them that extra degree of refinement, elegance and “try” that comes through in successive generations in their offspring.

Redwine is one - I think its in his 2nd or 3rd generation that you can find Anglo Arabian and you cant argue that he stamps his foals in a very definitive manner with a certain type of head …

The Polish stallion I stood many years ago - Winner - was also Anglo Arab through I think both the sire and dam lines and as well as competing successfully up to the Nations Cup levels and GP’s in Europe and North America he sired an incredible amount of successful GP and Open Working Hunter offspring on both continents

And now the new stallion is the same through the dam line with the Anglo Arab connection

The other interesting “connection” is that both Redwine and Royal Beach Farao are Mecklenburg registered. It seems Eastern Europe (including Poland where Winner came from) , including the former East Germany really try and integrate Arab and Anglo Arab blood into their breeding programs but they also tend to have a far different Arab “type” in Europe than we are used to seeing in North America … I think its more the Shagya Arab if I’m not mistaken …

I don’t think a lot of breeders and owners give enough credibility and “weight” to what a very well thought out, well planned breeding using Arab or Anglo Arab blood can bring to the table in their future show partner

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I saw a photo in a different group of a LOVELY Arab x Hanoverian. Dam was a Hanoverian approved Arab mare, sire was Escudo - I think. I’m not sure about Escudos suitability for hunters… But the photos of the cross were LOVELY.

[GreyDes]

^^ Was it Excepchanel? That’s one of stripes out of her Arabian mare, and is by Escudo II.

http://www.goldenoakarabiansandwarmbloods.com/breeding-program/mares/

Escudo II passed away, but I believe is still available frozen. http://rainbowequus.com/rem-stallions/escudo-ii/

[sortofbyx]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;9010056]
As I said, do your research. I don’t know as much as some you to trash the stallion (quite tacky) but I thought he looked nice and was a 1/2 arab.

I just thought I’d throw one out there, since the only other suggestion was someone breaking BB rules to advertise their own stallion.[/QUOTE]

If you admit that you don’t know as well as some, maybe you shouldn’t get your hackkes up over someone who DOES know the horse offering an honest critique.

As I said… I like what he produced for me. Not enough to repeat the breeding, as the foal was not super marketable, but the cokt was an improvement for my purposes over his dam.

[sortofbyx]

I really do love the Arab x WBs when done well, as Arabs tend to shorten an overly long WB and add refinement. Do you find that there’s a niche market for these guys? I’m genuinely curious, as I have seen very few that were truly done well (however I would sell a kidney for that Landkonig filly pictured above!)

[TrueColours]

(however I would sell a kidney for that Landkonig filly pictured above!)

Me too! She is exquisite!

I find the North American market tough and “different” in their views of Arabians in the genetic pool and in what Mare Owners want to breed for.

I think the pervasive view is based a lot on the Egyptian Arabians - the pyramid/Ponzi scheme where you can breed them, quit your job, put your kid through college, travel the world meeting like minded, fabulous people, sip champagne and eat caviar and crumpets each weekend and then you see a whack of them on CL for free - and people cant even give them away. And Mare Owners say “No way in MY breeding program would I ever have something that people cant even give away for free …”

The primarily Eastern European breeding programs are completely different and used the sport Arabian - mostly the Shagya - who played key and important roles in large, well respected breeding programs and the results of these breeding programs produced horses that have competed successfully up to the top levels in Jumping, Eventing and Dressage and when they made it to North America, to Derby winners, Open Working Hunter and A/O Champions in their zones so they all went up against the best the world had to offer on 2 continents and came out on top. But … few realized there was Arab or Anglo Arabian lurking in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc generations. Most riders and trainers are hard pressed to know who the sires and dams are, let alone do they pay any attention to their bloodlines …

And that’s a thing that breeders through the decades have found to be so damned frustrating - they spend inordinate amounts of time researching the best crosses to produce the best results to finally realize the new owners generally dont care and if asked, wouldn’t have a clue who the sire and dam are so its up to the breeder to stay on top of their offspring’s results and tell the world how wonderful they are …

Winner produced a very specific “type” of foal. The Polish bred horses can be a bit common through the head and if you look at his pedigree, he was a real mish mash of bloodlines and breeds all mixed together. Really - all that was missing was the kitchen sink in there … and when you see “Polish WB” in his pedigree, it can really be anything

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10608699&time=1484565693

But I think because of the strong Arab influence he always seemed to produce the same elegant, refined type. And they could all jump the moon as well …

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=sortofbyx;9011200]
I really do love the Arab x WBs when done well, as Arabs tend to shorten an overly long WB and add refinement. Do you find that there’s a niche market for these guys?[/QUOTE]

There is, although I’m not sure how big it is. I’m speaking as one of the buyers in that market.

I love Arabians, but I tend to prefer a little more size and substance than you can easily find (at least in the US; what might be available in Europe doesn’t help me, since importing is out of the question). Half Arabians fit that bill well.

With the rise of the sporthorse classes at Arabian shows, it seems like there has been more effort to purpose breed some half Arabians, and an Arabian/WB cross can result in a very nice Dressage horse when done well (and the same is true for other disciplines, but that’s what I was looking for last time I was buying).

So in the last few years it seems like there have been more nice Arab/WB crosses come on the market. And as the nicer purpose-bred crosses are successful, more people seem to be taking note.

But I think it’s still a very difficult market. When I was looking, most breedings (or at least, those that hit the open market) seemed to concentrate on a very few stallions. If you didn’t like those particular crossings, it could be hard to find a good Arab/WB at all–and the ones I did see were far out of my budget.

So I was going to custom breed an Arab/WB rather than buy. I know a few others who went that route as well. If you really want quality and have a strong idea of what you are (and aren’t) looking for, there just isn’t a lot on the market yet.

And the flip side is that if you’re looking for an Arab/WB cross because you’re really interested in the half Arabs generally, you’re probably open to other crosses as well. I ended up buying an Arab x Saddlebred/DHH.

And I will admit bloodlines were not a factor when I was looking for type rather than a specific crossing. Most of the horses I was looking at had been carefully bred–but for some discipline besides Dressage. The bloodlines were interesting, but I was looking at horses that had already proven that didn’t live up to the expectations of their breeding, so they were of limited use.

So yes, there is a niche market there. And at the top of the market, I am sure there are buyers who are dead set on the Arab/WB cross and are looking for the talented gems when they can find them. The rest of us–we may be veryinterested, but at heart I was looking for a type. An Arab/WB cross was the most likely to give me that type… but I couldn’t find what I wanted on the ground and in my budget.

So I ended up looking at other options. Most people I know who are interested in the cross do. It’s almost a niche market within a niche market from what I have seen on the buyer’s side.

[Hollycatt]

What about the elite trakehner stallion EH Buddenbrock who is now in the US? He carries shagya/Anglo Arab blood via his sire EH Sixtus, so you already have that complementary Arab performance blood coming through which may be a nice match for your lovely mare. You would also have the option to have the foal branded part/full trakehner if you graded your mare. You will retain jumping ability as well as talent for dressage.