I don’t breed. I’m too old and too crippled and too poor to breed a foal that will outlive me. I have couple of TB mares that I think are definitely worth breeding, but my time has passed.
Have you ever bred to a TB stallion other than AFR? You’ve come here many times asking for stallion suggestions and always seem to end up choosing a WB for your mares who couldn’t be bred to AFR.
Damn, viney :no:
Not much to say in response to your posts here, but for the many of us who support Fred and appreciate and respect her long, illustrious legacy of breeding TBs for sport (and being a pioneer in the field), this is both disrespectful and unnecessary.
I will keep my real feelings to myself so as to remain civil.
I love the xx too but it sure is swimming upstream…I think Fred just wants to breed a good horse and carry on her bloodlines. Plus I did not assume she wanted to breed an eventer…I think she is fully aware of the risks in that sport. Horses are enough of a heart break.
Yes, this - well said
As someone who is pretty local to Fred, I have had the divine honor of knowing AFR and a great many of his offspring – both full TB and WB crosses. I’ve even had the joy of riding and handling a few of his kids. And I expect now to be seeing more of his grandkids coming up the ranks.
These are beautiful, athletic, trainable creatures, and a testament to Fred’s life work. It doesn’t matter a damn if they are full TB or not. They are coveted animals participating in everything from pleasure riding to the Olympic Games. So IMHO, detractors can put that in their pipe and smoke it until they can claim the same level of success!
Viney, so much of breeding is looking forward: not just looking at the individual produced, but looking forward generations from now, looking at breeding trends, market trends, sport-change trends, etc.
The way that breeding is going, the TB, while certainly competitive in the sport of eventing, is not competitive in the breeding market. There are very few breeders who still breed to full TBs - not because the TBs aren’t athletic, but because 1. stallion owners of pure TBs are rare as hen’s teeth, and 2. the FEI sport that TBs are most competitive in (eventing) commands the least resale and stud value. TBs just are not in vogue. I hope that will change now that there are much better moving TBs now than there were then, but they’re not popular or in demand in the breeding market except to occasionally lighten an older-style mare - and even then, there’s 100s of modern WBs that can refine a horse without needing TB blood.
These two issues are pretty damning when it comes to pursuing the purity of TB bloodlines: why breed for eventing when you can breed for dressage and sell that foal for 15k in utero or 30k once broke? No one pays 30k for a TB event prospect even if it has the potential and the bloodlines: they’ll handily pay $30k if it’s a WB, though. Combining a TB with 3/4 WB/TB is, at this point from an eventing market perspective, the best way to create a sellable, marketable individual.
Sometimes the best way to preserve a bloodline is not to breed pure to pure, but to combine; this makes a horse that is more marketable on the breeding spectrum, rather than keep breeding down a road that has very little marketable future. However, creating an individual that has desirable bloodlines (both now and in the future) can insure that AFR’s influence and impact on the pool do not go unnoticed.
Anyway, the point being is that Fred is not a novice breeder - and she knows what she’s doing. What you are doing is unkind and a disservice to one of the few last TB breeders in the sport.
I am astounded by the sheer gall you have, Viney. Who in the world do you think you are?
I won’t say anything to defend Fred. Her program has spoken for itself.
Hopefully, we can get this thread back on track and Fred can tell us who the lucky suitor is.
If you are in it for the money and breed warmbloods, don’t claim that you care about TBs as sport horses. You don’t because you aren’t breeding TBs for sport.
[edit]
If you aren’t breeding forward, the lines die out. Right now, TBs are dying out because the average mare owner (NOT stallion owner!) does not consider TB studs. That is well beyond Fred’s control and has everything to do with the market and the trend towards technical efforts/SJ-style eventing.
The best way to prevent a line from dying is to pair it with lines that other people besides that breeder will use.
Viney, I’m concerned by your inflammatory posts. You’re usually not like this. I hope that whatever you are going through passes, and you let this be.
Quite honestly, I can see where Viney is coming from.
The only way to breed Thoroughbreds is TB x TB: live cover.
Otherwise it is a WB breeding. You can’t ever return to TB once you have outcrossed to non-TB.
Nothing wrong with breeding WB, but it is not breeding TB, it is breeding WITH TB. Since the largest Sport market in the USA is Dressage, unless one is dedicated to ‘other sport XX’ one would breed for Dressage. Number 2 is Show Jumping with the less able finding a ready and lucrative market as Hunters. Breeding for Eventing is not a financially realistic goal.
That doesn’t mean it is a poor goal, just that it is a black hole of lost money. Having to compete at the lower Ammy levels with sellers of OTTB that are bargain priced will defeat the TB Sport breeder.
It is possible there is a niche market, and in the internet age of advertising that market could be reached, but unless one is young, gung-ho and has the marketing know how and a decade or two to prove one’s theory… and can find the riders and financing to test it?
As I understand it there is a lack of stamina seen in some upper level Event WB that training and conditioning would have to be outrageous to correct and keep fit. Athletically TB have the advantage there. The sport has already been abbreviated and sliced to disadvantage a big striding forward horse and drifted toward Dressage a spectator friendly ‘circus’ rounds.
Then there is the ‘ranking question’, since TBs are not easy to research in the rankings done by WB federations and are pretty much ignored in any breeding rankings unless they have WB registered offspring that can be ranked.
One ends up Dancing in the Dark with no one watching or willing to let you turn on the light.
I’m glad someone took a chance and stood a TB stallion.
I can understand anyone’s reasons for breeding their mare (there is only one TB here) elsewhere if the desired market isn’t Eventing any longer.
Her money, her horse, her business, enough said! Your attack is uncalled for Viney.
[edit]
Those in this sport I think the most highly of, who, despite their professionalism and skill, strive to still become better, learn more, and are in the midst of competition, realize and know that relying solely on Thoroughbreds - the breed they still love as sport horses - isn’t what is sustaining the sport right now, nor their ability to continue to compete, and maintain a thriving business. And not all are in an ivory tower with scads of dough to support what they might wish otherwise.
If you wish to take complaint with anyone, find fault with all of the “horse lovers” who can’t be bothered to/aren’t directed to learn to become horsemen/horsewomen. Who can’t clean stalls, paint a fence, or slog through the mud to grab Star out of the field. But need cute, safe horsies to ride when they are dropped off, then get back in the car an hour later and only later show up to hop on a horse just for the horseshow. Then HAVE to have “one of those”. And “those” still isn’t Thoroughbred, sadly.
Good luck trying to find those who don’t HAVE to have the latest and greatest, but are willing to work with TBs that often need a little extra effort, hard work, understanding and consistency in order to realize their brilliance. And perhaps pooh-pooh their “scariness” because they are fortunate enough to know/stand behind a horseman/horsewoman who is still fighting to promote the breed, rather than all the idiotic “Thoroughbreds are scary.” or “I can work with Thoroughbreds, I’ve had one or two at my farm which makes me an expert.” questionable professionals.
And then please, create an overwhelming tide of support FOR Thoroughbreds and AGAINST Warmbloods so that financially everyone making the effort to promote Thoroughbreds as sport horses will then have the unlimited funds to return them to the era many of us knew 30, 40, 50 years ago.
Am tired of those on this forum who criticize others who have sacrificed considerably for the same purpose.
What is it with some gals who have to compete all the time with other women? I get this at work, and in family - and am just get sick of it. Support each other. Do your own best work. And when others ask advice/opinions, it’s not your turn to grab this as an opportunity to throw mud. Doesn’t make you more impressive.
[edit] There are other people who stand sport TB studs; Mary Hazzard and Mystic Replica, Fun and Fancy Free, Rather Well, Salute The Truth who has only recently retired from breeding and at least four or five others who do. From what I gather, and I could well be wrong, the only TB stallion Fred has ever used is her own. Which is fine, but says nothing about a commitment to any Thoroughbred but her own in sport horse breeding.
Don’t blame the OP for the decline in breeding TB’s for sport. It is not her fault that the race horse breeders overproduce and basically throw away thousands of young horses every year that don’t meet their goals, thus driving the price of a TB below the cost to raise one. You can only operate at a loss for so long … It is not her fault for the ridiculous live cover rules to register a TB. Who in their right mind would ship a mare off to who knows where at considerable expense when you can get your vet to pick up an Equitainer and breed your mare.
The only person who has laid eyes on this mare is the OP. She knows how her stallion produces. She has seen the stallion she bred to. Maybe the stallions you mentioned are not a good match and she is too polite to say so. Maybe they don’t ship and she doesn’t want to haul a mare hundreds of miles and leave it with people she doesn’t know for months at a time. If she was trying to breed a TB filly to carry on the line - then maybe limit yourself to one breed. But the mare is already a TB/WB cross and we don’t know if the goal is an event horse or maybe a jumper so who are we to question her choice.
I contributed $0.02 earlier up thread, but I feel the need to contribute a few more about the realities of the market Fred is in here.
I am somewhat local to Fred (90-120 minutes apart depending on route and traffic), so I understand the realities of the costs of horse keeping here. To simply keep a horse – any horse of any quality – you are looking at around $400/month for the very basics of care. So by the time it’s ready to enter training, you’ve sunk a bare minimum of $14,400 into it, excluding the breeding and mare care!
I also understand the realities of young horse development costs in this area. A decent trainer is going to run you in the area of $1,000-2,000 a month. Let’s say you put it in training for six months. $6,000-12,000.
Then there is the cost to showcase the horse. A single week at a show with the above trainer will be in the area of $1,000-2,000 depending on how much you can do yourself, how much prep, how many classes. That’s ONE show. Let’s say you do five shows. $5,000-10,000.
We have a $25,000 4-year-old horse on our hands if we hope to break even.
Now, let’s discuss the market. There are very few people willing to buy and bring along a green horse. I am one of the few. I spend most of my time competing against other ammy riders who have dropped high-5-figures to low-6-figures on their current mount. That’s in the 3’ hunters, folks. Again, there are some exceptions, but not many.
Case in point, we have TB hunter stakes. There were all of NINE entries in the last one. That tells you how many people are showing full TBs around here these days.
You can barely give away an average TB in these parts. I just popped over to the local FB sales group and I saw them going between $1,500 and $3,000. A far cry from the 5-figure pricetag of a half-decent WB or WB/TB cross. Remember, our break-even point for our foaled, raised and marketed 4-year-old is $25,000.
And breeding to a TB stallion and all the fuss involved when you can access stallions like these http://www.charlotfarm.com/warmblood-stallions.asp and these http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/Horses.aspx?PID=101 via AI without the semen needing to cross the border?
Now, as noted in my earlier post, I am a huge fan of AFR and his offspring based on my own personal experience. I do not think anyone can argue the merits of their accomplishments.
I will also admit to being a TB fan. Two of my biggest winners ever were OTTBs, and my current big winner is a TB/Trak cross. BUT, when I was breeding said TB/Trak cross to create my next super winner, and I was deciding what I needed/wanted to improve, I went to a full WB stallion. I wanted to add some height, scope and step. I wanted a slightly better trot so we’d move up from the mare’s 4th place hack prize to a definite winner in great company. And I also wanted some resale value in case my personal circumstances changed, or the foal was not the right one for me. Luckily, I got everything I wanted and more. AFR was still alive then, and I did consider him, but decided he wasn’t the right choice for MY mare.
FWIW, the mare Fred is breeding is not one I’ve seen before, but I knew her sire, Ali Baba, and loved him. I knew AFR, and loved him. I personally cannot wait to see what happens with this foal. I’m also dying to see Fred’s VDL Windsor H baby out of an AFR mare.
I think THAT is what’s important here. That Fred is breeding horses the very competitive market is EXCITED to see. And that the legacy of AFR as a TB stallion continues to have in impact on the quality of horses our local breeders are producing for that market.
A couple of months back there was a long and lengthy thread regarding the Gem Twist clones, and the ethics of breeding to them. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but the whole purpose of cloning Gem Twist was to revive access to some TB sport lines that had almost died out. Thankfully, Fred and others are being very careful to perpetuate AFR’s prized lines so we will have access to them now and for years in the future, so we won’t have to face the same ethical dilemma. So our access won’t be through that many full TBs? That’s the reality of our sport.
Your obsession with attempting to diminish Fred’s success is disturbing.
I’m pretty sure that Fred bred AFR herself, and her love of TBs began well before the years in which she stood him.
Do you really not understand the impact that AFR had upon sporthorse breeding? The qualities he had were the absolute best of those grand old TB lines. Even more, he was EXTREMELY successful in passing his best qualities along.
Do you have any idea how rare that is? There are precious few successful “stamping” sires of ANY breed.
By being who he was and having the owner he had, AFR was able to remain a RELEVANT TB sporthorse stallion until his retirement. He has had progeny in the OLYMPICS. He was approved by the very best WB registries (which you will fault, no doubt). And he did it all from a quiet spot in Canada.
What Fred’s doing here is making sure that those lines continue forward. That there is Thoroughbred in the pedigree of future sporthorse stars and Olympians.
When a tide turns, you have to ride with it. That is the only way to take what matters with you to the future. To ensure that there is another successful generation with those lines. That is true love for the Thoroughbred.
Do you really not understand the impact that AFR had upon sporthorse breeding? The qualities he had were the absolute best of those grand old TB lines. Even more, he was EXTREMELY successful in passing his best qualities along.
Stats, please. How do you know this? I keep hearing this, but I keep not seeing the actual results.
What kind of stats are you looking for? # of horses competing at what level? % of total progeny? What kind of stat measures “impact” on the industry? How do you define “success”?
It is clear that you disapprove, but it is not clear why. If you do not think AFR or Fred’s breeding program had any impact on the industry or was not successful or influential enough…why do you care what she does with any of it?
Why should your passion have any bearing on someone else’s decisions? You are so passionate about breeding TB sport horses then YOU can breed them. You owe Fred and her Fred’s legacy an apology in my opinion, no one on this board including you has made advances in the TB breed that even comes close to hers.
Wow. Can’t believe the way this post went. I have so much respect for Gail and all she has done in campaigning and breeding Fred.
In it for the money? What does that mean anyway? So basically breed pure TB’s for sport and give them away. Or wait, actually breed, raise, and send away for an upper level career to prove a theory and that means you aren’t in it for the money.
No idea why you decided to attack Gail out of the blue but totally uncalled for.
terri
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
