Gail (aka Fred), your post is so emblematic of who you are and what you believe in. Thank you for both.
And I’m so glad you have the joy of seeing the Fredlings!
12 Likes
You are one hell of a classy dame Gail. Kudos to you for rising above in this occasion just as you rose above in your breeding ventures.
9 Likes
I just want to say I’m so glad everyone stepped in to show appreciation for Gail. This is such a hard business with so little thanks, it’s really nice to know everyone sees it.
I think TB’s are super, and I don’t get the purist thing. All other breeds allow side breeding (or whatever you call it) to improve the breed. I have a friend who pulled a super TB stallion off the track. She showed him dressage for awhile, and he would have been super if she had kept at it. She sold him to a jumper trainer, who sold him in Europe, and he is now one of those fabulous TB’s, like AFR, you see in a lot of great sport horses–Hand in Glove.
7 Likes
I wanted to start with an apology for not posting here sooner, as I’ve been on travel and don’t like to address more delicate situations in a rush on my phone.
Having fully reviewed the thread, I want to provide my perspective on moderation choices (or lack thereof) in a situation like this one.
We generally want to take as hands-off an approach to moderation as possible. This is YOUR community. Obviously, we have some rules and guidelines we’ve established to hopefully help foster an environment in which you’ll find value.
We don’t have rules against people being rude or posting information that is incorrect. The first is subjective and the second is logistically unenforceable.
In general, I get the sense that most people don’t want a hair trigger moderation staff with members who swoop in and edit posts and ban people when they post a strong opinion. Yours may be the next opinion that is in the minority, and you will likely appreciate the chance to express it even if others don’t agree.
Someone coming in “cold” to read this, or any other thread, can take the opinions and information expressed, counterpoints and reactions from others and formulate their takeaway. In this situation, or say one about a poster giving some negative feedback about a company, there is the opportunity for others to respond with their own opinions and experiences, and in the end, there can be a richer discussion that can end up reflecting very well on the subject of the criticism.
In this situation, it’s clear that one poster’s opinion and delivery were not universally accepted or appreciated by the community, and it provided the opportunity for you all to make that clear and provide counterpoints that reflected incredibly well on the OP, her much-loved and respected stallion and her overall breeding program.
Having said that, this controversial tangent did evolve out of the natural course of the discussion on the thread, and threads do often develop and take turns away from the original/main topic. Things have died down a bit, but if there is still interest in further general discussion of TB sporthorse breeding or the use of the TB in sporthorse breeding, a spin-off thread would be a better place to continue the topic so it is less seemingly focused on a specific program, and this thread can return to the original topic.
Best wishes to the OP for a successful breeding!
Mod 1
15 Likes
I rarely post on these boards any longer because of the hate-filled people who seem to dominate the discourse. However, after reading this thread, I felt the need to respond.
I am not the least bit surprised to see Viney posting such drivel. I believe she’s having a hard time accepting that sport horse breeding has evolved beyond the exclusive use of TBs in eventing for various reasons…in other words, breeders have built a better mouse trap. Gail has been on the cutting edge of this by breeding a TB stallion (on top) with correct conformation and physical ability across all disciplines to carefully selected WB and WB/TB cross mares to produce not only great athletes, but horses that the buyers look for.
While it’s nice to think that a breeder can just breed for purity of sport, unless you are Bill Gates, you have to eventually sell something and hopefully that sales horse will go on to the job for which it is intended to do.
I put very little faith on someone’s opinion who sits behind a keyboard and instructs others on how to do something that they’ve never done themselves. I’ll remember that next time I actually get out and show one of my favorite homebreds that is by a WB stallion out of a WB/TB cross mare. I’ve got quite a drawer full of tri-colors to prove it.
15 Likes
It is also not like the breed will go extinct. As an earlier poster commented, historically it has been re-purposed racehorse bred thoroughbreds that have filled the sporting ranks because of the great characteristics of the thoroughbred as a breed not because of any single “sporting” blood line. It is the noble and tremendous attributes of the thoroughbred as a breed generally that makes it so versatile and is also why breeding for sport is not economical and perhaps even not necessary or even possible at this point in the very specialized nature of the horse sports.
5 Likes
In case anyone is looking for another TB stallion producing for Eventing, Shannon O’Roark’s stallion Just A Devil is TB, and his babies are eventing, including Lucky Devil (out of a Nevada/TB mare) who was eventing with Lauren Kieffer at Advanced. He is now at home with a 12 year old riding and learning on him - sound, but not as $$ as keeping him in training 
Lucky Devil is about 87% TB. He also has full and half siblings (full TB) that the 12 year old has broken, and is now eventing.
1 Like
Worth repeating! And producing these kind of horses is far, far more important to the sport and the majority of riders in it than producing Olympic competitors. Which, let’s not forget, Fred also did.
7 Likes
Good grief!! The OP wanted good suggestions for her mare and got some. She didn’t need the crap too.
I’ve never bred my mares, had 3 ottb mares over my lifetime including my perfect conformation (but she did not do well on the track before I bought her) daughter of Poker, and my little ATA, so I have no dog in this fight, but I don’t understand why someone would argue with the OP about whom to breed her mare to. Had I elected to breed, I would have looked at A Fine Romance very closely. And asked advice from experts in the TB group here.
Yes the europeans do it differently with their warmbloods. As an owner of a supposed gelding (he still thinks he’s a stud) from Germany, I love the way europeans breed their warmbloods… He is descended, btw, from War Relic. The europeans export from here TBs to improve their warmbloods. But I love the American, especially the KY, TBs, and my next TB will be a KY mare.
Fred, don’t let anyone deter you from finding a good stud to breed your mare to. Can’t wait to see the foal.
Just want to add, my hessen is 1/2 TB, some of that from War Relic and more from Inschallah, who before he became a member of the Oldenburger stud, was a “French anglo-arabian TB.” Warmbloods are full of TB blood. Otherwise, they’d not be so good at dressage and jumping. Give credit to the BREED of TB to produce the registries of warmbloods. Even my little ATA is full of Arab blood and TB blood, dau. of Impressionist. My Hessen is 20% Arab. The TB will still be improving WB horses long after we are all gone.
6 Likes
You make exceptions to that rule for some companies and trainers though, like the infamous dressage trainer. I imagine it takes the threat of a lawsuit and then all of a sudden threads are locked and posts deleted.
What viney posted is inexcusable.
8 Likes
But if you have followed the various tb threads over the years, this really is just viney and had nothing personally to do with Fred as was suggested in another thread.
there’s a reason the moniker “tb jihadis” came into use in various threads.
2 Likes
Regardless, she attacked Fred, her breeding business and her stallion. If threatening to sue works for others, maybe that’s what Fred needs to do if it keeps up.
There were numerous threads about the dressage “trainer” who shall not be named. Every one gets shut down. If it’s OK to allow the bashing against Fred it should be OK for us to bash the fake dressage scammer…I would name him but I can’t remember his name
4 Likes
I think there’s a difference making comments, however whacky, in a thread someone starts–as happened here–and person x starting a thread about person y.
Do you see the difference, Laura?
I have to say, I absolutely agree with what you are saying but don’t feel this thread exemplifies your point.
like this past week we had the Bernard Maier thread that was not unlike the early NP threads that evolved from social media explosions, but the later NP threads have a little more the air of stalking a nobody, thus verboten, whereas kind of nasty nelly threads about more famous people seem to be ok.
2 Likes
And I think it does exemplify my point. So we will have to agree to disagree.
I had my own run in with someone a few years ago and it got exceedingly nasty and personal. I too had to threaten to sue to make it stop…once I threatened, it immediately ended. Actually I don’t threaten, I fully intended to carry through. This person had a history of harassing rescues, animal welfare organizations and anyone who publicly donated to them and had been banned from other horse forums because of his abusive behavior. Yet he was allowed unfettered posting on CoTH.
It’s been my experience than many professionals in racing, equine welfare and rescue and rehoming have left the CoTH forum and refuse to return because of the harassment allowed.
3 Likes
Vineyridge I believe your personal attack on Fred (saying she is just in it for the money) and your incorrect “professional” attack on A Fine Romance’s offspring statistics ( they are only 2 star horses) is based on your dissapointment that even dedicated thoroughbred sport horse breeders have thrown in the towel. I feel your pain.
But your claims about the AFR offspring is complete uneducated ignorant bunk and fake news. He had an advanced event horse from his very first foal crop plus winning dressage horses and jumpers. This though he had competed as a hunter, not an event sire. There are two going 3 and 4 star horses ridden by Canadian team members who absolutely love them and even used them as their go to horses in the Indoor Eventing, which IMO is a terrible sport that is detrimental to event horses and riders’ health.
Your claims about A Little Romance are also incorrect. She won Canada’s prestigious Bromont 3 star years ago at a very young age. Years later, in spite of time off and setbacks not of her own making, she came back swinging in the Olympics as the fore runner on a cross country course designed to successfully knock out many experienced combinations. She is considered an extremely talented horse by a US professional I know who worked with her in team capacity. The 4 star designation is tough here because there is only one 4 star on our continent, versus the many 4 star opportunities in Europe.Blue was retired 2 fences from the end after jumping like 95 percent of the cross country course. “Blue” is the highest performing offspring out of her dam, btw, even though she is the only one sired by AFR.
It is wrong and hurtful to speak ill of the dead. That is why you should apologize to Fred for your false allegations about A Fine Romance. It is the right thing to do. Everyone would think more highly of you for manning up and admitting you made a mistake.
Famous dedicated North American sport tb breeders, such as Emerson and Pittman, have moved on to promoting the retraining of ottbs, versus the breeding of sport tbs. They have said such things as “we can’t breed ones as nice as this ottb” and “you will go bankrupt breeding tbs for sport”. That is why you should apologize to Fred for saying she is in it for the money. In fact, she has had the guts to grapple with, and adapt to the current state of affairs. And by the way, there is very little money in event breeding, it is a labor of love.
I always thought you were a passionate proponent of tb sport horse breeding. If that is still the case, I would be happy to receive about 20k seed money from you to do an embryo transfer breeding with a tb sire we could agree upon. We would use Spirit of Romance, my gorgeous tb mare.
Her breeding is A Fine Romance x Emmy Moi, a tb pedigree to die for. I would give you breeder’s credit on the foal, but I would be the responsible owner. Spirit’s career is doomed to be my personal horse, but she has won everything I could ever want to do, which is novice eventing and hunter stuff in my state. She is also as fancy a mover as any warmblood event horse, prompting Shelly Francis to say she looked like a Jazz mare at a clinic.
Naturally, we would tackle the upper level training and competition costs of the foal about ten years from now. I am told our cost could be hundreds of thousands in order to retain ownership. The are not many 4 star riders in North America to choose from, but the Canadians are well thought of horse women by my friend, and they also love riding AFR offspring. So, maybe that lightning in a bottle could happen for us. So please throw your hat in and put some skin in the game that you love to talk about here. At the least apologize to Fred. Hopefully you can execute one of my requests.
9 Likes
As this thread was bumped again to further refute earlier comments, and we don’t want to return to the tangent of the unsolicited debate re: the OP’s breeding program, we’ve made some edits to reduce that line of discussion and are closing the thread.
Though it’s not technically in violation of our posting policies to offer such observations, we do want to encourage users to be mindful of what they post and consider whether they should post things just because they can.
Thanks,
Mod 1
2 Likes
