Hey there,
I am looking for info on handling/retraining a 7yo thoroughbred stallion.
He was purchased by me about 3 months ago after I went to his stud farm to look at another mare and saw him being led onto the dog tucker truck! He was a successful racer with 13 wins from 20 starts, but spiral fractured his cannon bone a year ago. The fracture means he can no longer race, although he could do some light competition. He was more of a pity buy though!
In terms of handling he is a sweetheart, will come over in the paddock to say hi but won’t be pushy. He is currently padlocked in a 3 acre paddock with 1.3m high post and rail fencing(no electrics), with 3 mares on one side, 2 geldings on another and the 3rd fence line has my other 2 stallions on the other side of it!(both 8, been padlocked together since they were born - never had any problems even in breeding season).
My one problem with this boy is that when he is relaxing and lets himself ‘drop’ he gets quite savage towards himself, to the point where he has bite and kick marks across his belly.
Apparently his trainer used to flick his memeber with a chain when he let himself drop!
Is there anyone who can offer advice for handling this? He is a lovely boy who is nice to all the other horses(mares, geldings, and has tapped noses with the other 2 stallions as well), and as his balls never dropped I would be in for a significant cost to get him gelded with the chance that it wouldn’t help!
Thanks for any info:)
Oh dear. The only reason to keep a stallion intact is if there is some prospect he will be bred, and if he is a cryptorchid then odds are folks will not want to breed to him. The behavior you see is as you already accurately assessed: he is doing what comes naturally ( dropping) and feeling very stressed about it as he was brutally punished for it in the past. Thus the self destructive behavior… From being stressed out. In breeding stallions that have this issue it’s quite a chore to teach them to collect or mount a mare. They are afraid to.
I think you will find most on this board are not in favor of keeping a stallion intact “just because”.
Personally - I would have him gelded - he will have less hormones in his system, and will probably be a bit better adjusted because of it.
I concur, it doesn’t sound like he ever needs to be bred, and he will be a much, much happier horse and have a significantly less stressful life if you just geld him.
Cryptorchids need to be gelded in a clinic too. Tricky surgery.
From the phrasing I am guessing the OP is in NZ or perhaps Oz? Here in NZ Cryptorchid surgery is not done at any old clinic. It will cost quite a bit and there will be significant recovery time where he will need to be kept in clean, dry environment.
Where are you located OP?
Thinking outside the box:
Can you use a muzzle or a neck-cradle on him to discourage the biting behavior?
Clicker-training?
Even gelding him may not discourage the behavior if he associates it with dropping and not “arousal.”
[QUOTE=LolB;8156710]
Hey there,
I am looking for info on handling/retraining a 7yo thoroughbred stallion.
He was purchased by me about 3 months ago after I went to his stud farm to look at another mare and saw him being led onto the dog tucker truck! He was a successful racer with 13 wins from 20 starts, but spiral fractured his cannon bone a year ago. The fracture means he can no longer race, although he could do some light competition. He was more of a pity buy though!
In terms of handling he is a sweetheart, will come over in the paddock to say hi but won’t be pushy. He is currently padlocked in a 3 acre paddock with 1.3m high post and rail fencing(no electrics), with 3 mares on one side, 2 geldings on another and the 3rd fence line has my other 2 stallions on the other side of it!(both 8, been padlocked together since they were born - never had any problems even in breeding season).
My one problem with this boy is that when he is relaxing and lets himself ‘drop’ he gets quite savage towards himself, to the point where he has bite and kick marks across his belly.
Apparently his trainer used to flick his memeber with a chain when he let himself drop!
Is there anyone who can offer advice for handling this? He is a lovely boy who is nice to all the other horses(mares, geldings, and has tapped noses with the other 2 stallions as well), and as his balls never dropped I would be in for a significant cost to get him gelded with the chance that it wouldn’t help!
Thanks for any info:)[/QUOTE]
Two things:
Are you sure the bite and kick marks on his belly are caused by stress? Urinary tract pain/problems, including a dirty sheath, can result in kicking and biting at the belly. Insects can cause irritations as well. There could be a physical issue of pain or some irritation happening when he drops.
Gelding your horse might not help with the kicking/biting the belly problem, but it will be helpful for his future if he is a gelding. And who knows, maybe the surgeon will discover some other issue which is irritating the horse? I do get that the surgery might be too expensive.
I wish you all the best and I hope you keep us updated.
Perhaps reverse conditioning? Assuming other possibilities are ruled out ( bladder stones albeit uncommon in horses can also cause irritation, another maybe to add to the list).
Praise for dropping in “proper” circumstances - ie mare in heat brought into his paddock; ignore if he drops in “inappropriate” environment; interrupt unwanted behavior in a positive manner (so as to not cause increased pressure/stress) - call him over to the fence or do something that gets his attentions but does not scare him (weedwhack around his pen?) lead his neighbors somewhere he is interested in keeping an eye on?; if possible, teach him to urinate on cue -some horses are surprisingly amenable to that.
If he is a bilateral cryptorchid, he should be sterile. Retained testes are more likely to become cancerous or cause other issues.
Good luck
Once a horse starts to self mutilate it’s pretty hard to stop but the behaviour increases with stress so if you can relieve stressors in the environment you can maybe minimize it. I would certainly try moving your paddocks around to start , he may do better next to mares with no other horses sharing a fence with him or he may need to not see mares at all. Some light exercise and diet changes can help too. I have had some luck with the b vitamin calming supplements.
[QUOTE=st_francis;8157253]
Once a horse starts to self mutilate it’s pretty hard to stop but the behaviour increases with stress so if you can relieve stressors in the environment you can maybe minimize it. I would certainly try moving your paddocks around to start , he may do better next to mares with no other horses sharing a fence with him or he may need to not see mares at all. Some light exercise and diet changes can help too. I have had some luck with the b vitamin calming supplements.[/QUOTE]
This. I HATE to hear about handlers punishing a stallion for dropping by going for the penis…this is what you wind up with. Frustration to the point of self-mutilating.
I’d try this or even better would be to geld him. Poor guy. I’ll bet he’ll be so much happier as a gelding.
I had a cryptorchid that was self mutilating- he stopped immediately after gelding surgery. I think the retained testicles were causing pain/discomfort.
I also agree he needs to be gelded and also checked for other physical issues.
Retained testicles definitely can cause pain. I’m surprised he was successful as a racehorse with this problem.
Have his testicles been examined under sedation? He might (slim chance) just be under developed due to stress and they may drop on exposure to mares. This happened with a 3.5yo of our own.
Hi there,
When I first noticed him self-mutilating I called the vet immediately, he was given a full check under anastetic, nothing appeared to be a problem.
His testicles aren’t fully formed(we think), since he was 5 he has been put to a few mares(7-10 per year) and each year he only got 2 or 3 in foal and could only be bred from with a head collar on to keep him from attacking himself.
I live at the bottom of the North Island of NZ and have been informed that to castrate him he would need to be taken to Massey in Palmerston North, and having enquired there I know that the cost for his operation would far exceed my budget, so am currently trying to get him to stop without having to go that far. He has been shifted paddocks so now he’s in with some of my more cruisey geldings who tend to drop out in the paddock, in the hope that he will learn from example! Otherwise I’ve been looking into buying him a cribbing halter, but can’t do much about him kicking himself! However, from watching video footage(that paddock is used as a fooling paddock and so has cameras set up to watch it) I know that he has decreased attacking himself in the paddock, to the point where he’ll only attack himself when he is disturbed(keep in mind that this is only in the last 48 hrs!). But when we bring him in to groom him he’ll still have little crazy moments in his stall, although these appear to be less frequent when he has afire do from his paddock in a stall next to him!
Do I keep him as he is? Keep hoping that he’ll drop the habit? Keep him with my geldings?(there are 3 geldings, ex riding-school horses, 24, 22 and 19 years old and they don’t tend to do much except for the occasional frosty morning when they think that they’re spring chickens!!)
Thanks for the info!
Sorry! Racing to get out of the house!
His paddock is used as a FOALING paddock.
And
When we bring him in to groom him we try to keep a friendly gelding from his paddock next to him!
Sorry!
[QUOTE=Bats79;8159135]
Retained testicles definitely can cause pain. I’m surprised he was successful as a racehorse with this problem. [/QUOTE]
There are quite a few successful TB stallions that are cryps. AP Indy is one. The current Kentucky Derby, Preakness winner and TC hopeful, American Pharaoh, is another. Unlike most other breeds, it appears the TB industry does not consider cryptorchidism a fault as long as the horse is fast and can pass it on. That’s probably why cryptorchism is common in TBs.
^^^^ well, who knew? !
LolB - It sounds like you are making the right moves. Nothing better than learning from your peers (especially if you are a herd animal), so I like your idea about him learning from example. As long as he is not aggressing against the geldings in any way, I say keep at it!
Thanks for that!
No he isn’t aggressive towards the geldings, even if he was my old boys get padlocked with the yearling colts every summer to teach them manners! And I’ve seen my 19yo put my two 8yo stallions back in their place when they’ve stepped outta line!!(my 8yos may be stallions, but it’s the 19yo(crisko) that runs the farm!!)
My 19yo and the TB will be coming in to the stable in a couple of hours(the gelding is doing a jumping lesson for a 9yo and the TB will be getting some handling) so I’ll post back here with how he goes!!
