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Stallion wont collect?

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

I had a stallion brought over for a collection today that had not settled any mares this year (live cover) and they wanted to do a collection on him and analyze his samen and inseminate the 2 mares that are ready to breed now

For the last 3-4 years he has only done LC, prior to that he was beaten with a broomstick because he did something / didnt do something that he was or wasnt supposed to do and he wants NO part of this whole collecting process.

We tried for over an hour. With a urine soaked cloth on the phantom, with allowing him to go nose to nose with 2 of my mares in their stalls to tease him stronger, and if even 1/4 inch of his penis came out and he thought you were coming near it, back up it went

No one got upset, everyone told him what a good boy he was, he was praised for every 1/4 inch he showed.

All for naught. He wouldnt even get close to the phantom and he wouldnt drop enough to clean him

What the heck do you do with a stallion like this? How do you convince them that all is okay again and no one is going to beat them when they get close to the phantom?

The owner wanted me to try collecting him off one of my mares and no way - I didnt need anyone or anything to get hurt, trying to do someone a favor. If he wasnt prepared to jump up on the phantom and get collected, I want prepared to try that, especially on my 2 available mares that had never been live covered before

He wont be coming back again but curious if anyone has dealt with this before and what you did to overcome it

#2

[QUOTE=TrueColours;6493192]

What the heck do you do with a stallion like this? How do you convince them that all is okay again and no one is going to beat them when they get close to the phantom?

The owner wanted me to try collecting him off one of my mares and no way - I didnt need anyone or anything to get hurt, trying to do someone a favor. If he wasnt prepared to jump up on the phantom and get collected, I want prepared to try that, especially on my 2 available mares that had never been live covered before

He wont be coming back again but curious if anyone has dealt with this before and what you did to overcome it[/QUOTE]

Yup. Those are often the ones that arrive here after a performance career. They have usually been heavily and sometimes BRUTALLY discouraged when displaying ANY kind of sexual behavior/interest. Yes, it can be overcome, but usually requires a huge amount of patience, a good mare that will display estrus well to encourage him and people that can move quietly and gently with no sudden movements. Repeated attempts over several days will usually result in a positive outcome. But, it will often take hours. And there are some that you just cannot overcome that sense of self-preservation and if they have been live covered, some of them will just wait you out.

1 Like
#3

This guy as well was one of the breeds that is very massive from the girth forward, so he would almost lock his neck and bulldoze in the direction he wants to go in

His owner was handling him, I was in charge of the washing and collection, but we couldnt even get him to fully drop to clean him, even when he was nose to nose with my mare who showed enough interest that he should have been interested in her

I didnt think there was a quick fix to this one and I figured it was starting back at Square One with him

My mare that is in season peed when she came in and I soaked that up with the towel, so it was fresh “in season” mare pee and he had “0” interest in sniffing that and it had “0” effect in even remotely arousing him

I know you have mentioned several times of these types of stallions that you get in and how incredibly frustrating and time consuming they can be to overcome their issues. Ive dealt with those with low libido’s and that presents its own set of problems, but this was the first time I had dealt with one that had been beaten badly when collecting and after an hour of everyone praising him up for ANY step in the right direction, we werent even at Square One with him. Not even close … :no:

Thanks for your input as always Kathy

#4

Mare in stall?

What caught my eye in the description of events is that the stallion was teased with mares in stalls. Some stallions, especially ones who have been exclusively live covered but also been handled around other horses in non-breeding situations (as they should be) do not show much interest, unless they think the mare is “free”. Standard procedure is, if not collecting off of the mare (experienced staff at collection facilities can carry this out without incident), is to have the mare on the other side of the breeding dummy. The stallion can reach over the dummy to be teased by mare and when the stallion tries to mount the mare over the breeding dummy, the mare is lead a few steps away. This is also standard procedure when teaching inecperienced stallions how to collect.

#5

I had a racehorse stallion about 20 years ago that was like that. Overall a very timid horse. I used some really well behaved mares that were used to pasture breeding, that weren’t prone to kick him (fingers crossed), & turned him out for one season with them. After that he thought he was bud-stud! Still had to handle him quietly for in hand breeding but was tons better about it.
Of course there is the real chance that he could get kicked but it worked for me.

#6

[QUOTE=szipi;6493705]
The stallion can reach over the dummy to be teased by mare and when the stallion tries to mount the mare over the breeding dummy, the mare is lead a few steps away. This is also standard procedure when teaching inecperienced stallions how to collect.[/QUOTE]

Actually, we start training a stallion to the breeding mount the way we want him to finish. In other words, if we want him to collect quietly and without a mare present, we start that way. No mare present or in the breeding room. We simply use estrus mare urine on a papertowel and on the end of the breeding mount. If he doesn’t tease up without the mare, we then bring the mare into a stall with an open window in the breeding room that he can see her and gradually move closer if necessary. But, if possible, when training, we go the opposite way one would expect. We try to start with no interaction and gradually increase the interaction if we aren’t getting any results with the ultimate goal of the stallion KNOWING that when he comes into the breeding room, what his job is and not having any mare around. About 75% of the time, it’s successful.

The issue with this stallion is that my guess he has been trained that when he is being handled, sexual behavior is totally unacceptable. Consequently, unless you remove the humans from the equation, he’s not going to display any sexual behavior. In order to get beyond that, you have to figure out how to override the fear of being disciplined with someone standing right there next to him. Those boys are really difficult to manage and can literally take hours and LOTS of patience. Ask me how I know that <rolling eyes>. It is why we say over and over and over again - when handling a stallion, deal with the behavior and ignore the penis. If the stallion is behaving quietly and well, but has an erection…ignore it. It “will” go away when he realizes there is no place to use it. If the stallion is acting like a baboon on a string, deal with THAT behavior. Despite the appearance to the contrary, the penis really doesn’t have a brain of its own even though it seems sometimes that it does ;).

#7

My limited information on this stallion was that he had been ridden and competed. No idea if he had been disciplined in a show environment for showing sexual behaviour or not

He did live cover breedings only and then a few years ago the interest came from outside of the area mares so they looked into collecting him

One place he was at - they successfully collected him

The next place, which was closer and more convenient, couldnt get him collected and I guess in frustration, started beating him with a broomstick handle for something he did or didnt do

Since that time, he has only live covered the mares, but as none settled this year, they are wondering if there is something wrong with his semen hence the request to bring him here and see if we could get him collected

No idea of how much recollection a stallion would have of something bad that occured 3-4 years ago or if the live cover routine is so ingrained in him now, he wants no part of being collected

In either case - he wanted no part of urine soaked rags, mares in stalls or the phantom

#8

When I did my one-on-one course at Kathy & Jos’s in May, I got to watch them successfully collect a very scared boy who had been through a similar situation as noted above - last stallion facility couldn’t get him collecting and disciplined him out of frustration. Having patience retraining a stallion like that is an understatement and Kathy and Jos were prepared to take as much time as that stallion needed…and they did :wink: In the end, they successfully got him collected several times during my week there.

Just a note to TrueColours, I would scrap any notions of washing his penis before trying to get a collection. At this point, the goal is just to gain his confidence and get him collected. I wouldn’t throw in washing his penis on top of everything else. I’d leave that for when he’s back to being collected regularly and confident in his handlers and surroundings.

My suggestion would be to send him to a well known and reputable stallion facility that has lots of knowledge and experience with handling problem stallion. They will be his best bet on getting him successfully collected again.

#9

Not to hijack this thread, but this happened to us yesterday. We were showing our young stallion at a Welsh Pony Show, he is very well behaved in and out of the ring and we have also been ground collecting him successfully and have shipped to a few mares this summer. Actually, we had to collect him the day before the show.

In the middle of his class, he got an erection, and despite trying to distract him a bit ;), it just wouldn’t go down. BUT, he was standing perfectly still, was relaxed and obedient and paying attention to me, so I just let it be. After coming out of the class, someone came up to me and said, “I don’t want you to get offended but…his penis was out for most of the class”. My response was, so what! I explained that we collect him and ship semen, he was well behaved in the class and relaxed, and tried to make them understand why disciplining the “penis” was never going to be the correct thing to do. Another breeders said, “If I had been handling him, I would have whacked his penis”. Oh yeah, the next time we went to collect him, I’m sure it would have been great :rolleyes: Sigh! :no:;):lol:

#10

Difference in philosophy

Equine Reproduction said:

About 75% of the time, it’s successful

Where I come from, when training horses, success 75% of the time is just not enough. Also, im also not in the position to dink around forever (it’s inefficient, costs too much etc. etc.) - I was taught correct, efficient and expeditious way of handling things.

#11

Does he drop his penis when he pees?

#12

[QUOTE=szipi;6494346]
Equine Reproduction said:

About 75% of the time, it’s successful

Where I come from, when training horses, success 75% of the time is just not enough. Also, im also not in the position to dink around forever (it’s inefficient, costs too much etc. etc.) - I was taught correct, efficient and expeditious way of handling things.[/QUOTE]

So besides tooting your own horn what are you saying then? You believe you have a better way or could have gotten the job. So then give us your insight.

#13

One would imagine that, for the 25% in which the approach is unsuccessful, that Kathy and Jos would move on to some form of Plan B…

#14

Wow, I guess next time I have a repro problem that I need help with, I know who to contact. :rolleyes:

What I got out of Kathy’s post, is that when initially training a stallion for collecting, less is more…and that tends to work 75% of the time with the first training sessions. For the other 25% that it doesn’t work for, then as Ghazzu said, you then move on to Plan B and likely bring in a mare beside the mount, etc.

#15

Pls read my previous post

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;6494449]
So besides tooting your own horn what are you saying then? You believe you have a better way or could have gotten the job. So then give us your insight.[/QUOTE]

I posted the industry standard (that requires no collection and smearing mare urine anywhere, does not take forever and produces 100% positive results). I was tooted down. Please read the ENTIRE thread before posting.

#16

I politely disagree. :wink:

One, it’s super easy to collect mare urine ONCE, put it into 1/2 mL straws and freeze it and then just take it out as needed.

Due to my husband’s work hours, 99% of the time I am collecting by myself with no help. It would be pretty tough for me to have a mare standing beside the mount, tease him up and then walk the mare awayor keep her standing there as he mounts…and then get him collected. :wink: If all of my boys were only taught to collect with a mare beside the mount…I would be @#$ out of luck with the amount of times I’m forced to collect on my own. And then what if I have a mare that isn’t interested in doing that one day, needs a shot, etc. To me, that’s fussing around :wink:

Kathy & Jos have been wonderful teachers. All four of our boys can be collected by myself. No mares needed. And after spending a week at Kathy’s and watching them ground collect their boy with just the use of a urine soaked piece of paper towel to get him stimulated for 10 seconds…we are now doing this with our own young boy.

Sorry, but there is nothing easier than holding a piece of paper towel in front of a stallion and then getting a collection in 10 seconds flat. Much easier and faster than having a handler bring in a mare and someone else holding and collecting the stallion :wink:

As well, the “industry standard” you posted might work for “most” stallions, but will not work for all of them, nor will it work 100% of the time for problem stallions or stallions with past collection issues. You just can’t say it’s 100% positive results, nor can you say it’s quicker and won’t take forever. :wink: Every stallion is different, every stallion’s libido is different. Some stallions are eager to mount and get the job done ASAP, other stallions need to wine and dine first or need to read a few playboy magazines before being ready to go. Being anything but patient is a diservice to that particular stallion.

You may have been taught that…but unfortunately not all stallions have that same philosophy :wink:

#17

[QUOTE=szipi;6494534]
I posted the industry standard (that requires no collection and smearing mare urine anywhere, does not take forever and produces 100% positive results). I was tooted down. Please read the ENTIRE thread before posting.[/QUOTE]

Nothing in life produces 100% positive results, least of all something dealing with a living, breathing animal with a mind of their own.

#18

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;6494450]
One would imagine that, for the 25% in which the approach is unsuccessful, that Kathy and Jos would move on to some form of Plan B…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Daventry;6494528]
What I got out of Kathy’s post, is that when initially training a stallion for collecting, less is more…and that tends to work 75% of the time with the first training sessions. For the other 25% that it doesn’t work for, then as Ghazzu said, you then move on to Plan B and likely bring in a mare beside the mount, etc.[/QUOTE]

Yup and yup.

Hauling the mare out and sticking her under the stallion’s nose “will” result in a faster collection. However, because we “do” recognize that a: Not everyone has a ovarectomized or estrus mare standing around; and b: not everyone has the staff around to hold the mare; and c: that collecting a stallion without the drama of HAVING to have a mare to collect “is” more expeditious and efficient in the long run. It “does” require more time and energy initially, but I think our clients are appreciative that we do take the time to train the stallion for ease of collection.

If Plan A doesn’t work, we moveon to Plan B, Plan C, PLan D…whatever it takes. We simply start where we wish to finish. It’s efficient and usually results in a quiet stallion that is easy to collect WITHOUT a mare in the room.

I didn’t “toot” you down, Andras. I simply suggested that “your” definition of the industry standard may not be what others believe it to be. We take the time up front so that we DON’T have to take the time later and we hopefully aren’t creating trainwrecks looking for a place to happen. As Laurierace noted, NOTHING is 100% and that can be said even more when dealing with horses. As we train a considerable number of stallions, including ones like the OP is dealing with, I think we have a pretty good idea of what we are doing ;). If you don’t have the time and view training a stallion as something that MUST be done within a specific time frame, I suggest that you probably would be better off doing something else with your time. Sometimes training doesn’t realize much of a profit and that’s just the breaks.

#19

In all fairness, I think Equine Reproduction has acquired a reputation in the breeding industry that szipi hasn’t. I am more inclined to trust the advice coming from that company than a private breeder with one, standard, way of doing things. Not to say it can’t happen, but until I see szipi giving courses in equine reproduction, I am going to stick with the company that does. :wink:

#20

I think what was really against us with this particular stallion and situation was that the mare was at a 52 and ovulation was imminent so right from the get go - there was a definitive time frame that we had to work within and as the clock was ticking and he was showing “0” interest in anything, there wasnt time for Plan B, C, D or anything else. There was only time for Plan “A” in a structured time frame and as we found out rather quickly he really didnt give a rats ass who was ovulating when and how inconvenient he was making everything - he wanted no part of it

Years ago I helped work with a TB stallion off the track who obviously had been whacked every time his penis even showed any hint of coming out. With a mare in full blown estrus a few feet away and being 100% receptive, he was deathly afraid of showing any interest in her as it had never been pleasant in the past when he did. It took just under a week before he was happily collecting and really looking forward to his new job and we all had to approach collections with him with the mindset that we had all day, nothing in the world was bothering us and everything was extremely low key and quiet around him. It was really hard though because even the action of swatting at a fly that was bugging us would be enough to totally set him back and shut him down so at times we had to tolerate flies crawling all over us and not flinch - it drove us nuts! :lol:

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