I’ll use Big Brown as an example since I followed him quite actively when he was racing.
His initial offering was $65k, granted that was during a different economy, but it is now only $10k. It dropped substantially in 2013 from $35k down to where it is now.
I think he used to be at Three Chimneys, but last I checked he was at a small farm in NY.
Has he not had enough successful offspring in order to maintain a higher fee and stay at one of the larger farms in KY?
Stud fees drop for all sorts of reasons. It’s not unusual for a horse standing his first year at stud to have a higher than average stud fee. That’s pretty much due to “shiny new toy” syndrome. Everyone wants to be the first to discover for themselves if a new stallion is going to make it. The offspring of new sires can also bring higher prices at the sales for the same reason. Cynics will say that new sires bring higher prices because they haven’t yet had the chance to make any mistakes, but I think it’s more the opposite–breeders and racehorse owners are ever hopeful that a horse they loved on the track will prove to be the Next Big One.
In the next several years, a new sire’s stud fee generally drops as newer horses are retired to stud and there is as yet–aside from offspring looks and sales prices–nothing new to know about that now 3rd and 4th year sire whose offspring are not yet old enough to run. At that point, with most stallions, stallions managers are struggling to keep their unproven horses’ books filled and prices will drop to be more attractive to breeders.
Once a horse has offspring running, his stud fee is tied almost entirely to their performance and sales prices. But other factors come into play too. Things like the farm standing the horse and the number of mares generally accepted into the horse’s book will also have an effect on his desirability and the stud fee that breeders will be willing to pay.
In the case of Big Brown, he struggled from the beginning to attract the best mares. Many breeders were turned off by his racing connections (IEAH) and had no desire to support them. The fact that the horse was sired by Boundary didn’t help, nor that his family is pretty weak for the first few generations. Those things combined with an intitial stud fee that many felt was too high in a market that was dropping drastically have put him where he is today.
What laurie said, and they need to have exceptionally big good looking youngsters to maintain a high stud fee the first couple years.
Thanks for the replies. I don’t have anything in the game (i.e. I’m not in the racing game), but I like to follow what’s going on.
What’s been said so far makes sense. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years as he gets more foals on the ground. I seem to recall reading that IEAH sold him on so perhaps under new ownership people won’t be so turned off.
Weren’t there some questions about that quarter crack and hints his dam was plagued by them? That might turn me off to sending him good mares more then unsavory connections.
that small farm isn’t so small. lol. http://www.dutchessviewsfarm.com/home.html
they’ve stood some nice stallions over the years. and, having visited, it’s a lovely farm, just a bit off the beaten track.
I think NY will be a great spot for him, it has a fantastic statebred program and his new connections will send him many of their own mares to support him.
To me seems like a backward way of looking at things to price stallions so high before they’ve produced anything of note. Plenty of stallions that have run well that didn’t sire anything special. Not to mention the ones with lesser records on the track that were real studs in the breeding barn. 
[QUOTE=Timex;7883807]
that small farm isn’t so small. lol. http://www.dutchessviewsfarm.com/home.html
they’ve stood some nice stallions over the years. and, having visited, it’s a lovely farm, just a bit off the beaten track.[/QUOTE]
I knew he had moved there, but was curious why go to NY instead of staying at Three Chimneys?
In 2010 there was Emery University study related to Thoroughbred stud fees. I’ve read it and there is no new information nor provocative thought in the study but it might be interesting to read for some of you. The address below has a link to download the dissertation.
https://etd.library.emory.edu/view/record/pid/emory:7tz22
BIG BROWN is an interesting case study. I remember commentators talking about his sire as not being prolific and the mare’s farm breeding program as somewhat of a scientific program. The remedial care that went into keeping BB racing should frightened any mare owner away from him. As I recall Bill Mott trained Boundary and he was retired due to a hoof problem.
Like PA, NY is getting some nice throw offs from KY, but I’m skeptical about BB. REAL QUIET spent four or five years in KY I think, while shuttling to Australia up through 2005, then he was sent to PA. Sadly, a paddock accident took his life a couple years back.
Wouldn’t we all like to have a share of DANZIG. His genes alone have gotten the Australian market abuzz. And to think Malibu Moon was just up the road in MD standing for song compared to today.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7883969]
I knew he had moved there, but was curious why go to NY instead of staying at Three Chimneys?[/QUOTE]
Like Mintano said, it’s probably a good spot for him. He hasn’t set the world on fire as a sire, but could do quite well in a different market.
Not exactly on point for this thread, but an interesting read about stud fees and breeder profitability. Slightly dated.
Part one OP/ED is linked through:
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/restricted/pdf/oped/oped101008.pdf
Part two OP/ED is linked through:
http://www.liberationfarm.com/articles/TDN-Stud%20Fees%20Profitability%20Part%202.pdf
Google is such a mess when searching. You’d think both articles, as they part and parcel of one another, would be located in the same place.
[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7884187]
Google is such a mess when searching. You’d think both articles, as they part and parcel of one another, would be located in the same place.[/QUOTE]
They are. Why is it google’s fault that it found both pieces, which have been picked up by various websites?
TDN has both here: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/members/oped/index.cfm?authors_id=3
Liberation Farm has both here: http://www.liberationfarm.com/index2.htm
[QUOTE=SportArab;7883872]
To me seems like a backward way of looking at things to price stallions so high before they’ve produced anything of note. Plenty of stallions that have run well that didn’t sire anything special. Not to mention the ones with lesser records on the track that were real studs in the breeding barn. :-)[/QUOTE]
Stud fees are set based on the purchase/syndication price. It is generally based on a 4-5 year “pay out”. In other words the purchaser-syndicate sets the stud fee at a price the “market” will accept and the purchaser/syndicate has a chance of regroup the purchase price by either using and or selling their season each year BEFORE the horse “looks” to be the “goods” and or more often than not a dud on the race track.
If they are the “goods” the market will set their future price. There is a lot more to getting a stallion off the ground then “hanging” a stud fee around his neck. The stallion market these days is tougher then ever. If a KY based stallion is not in the top 10% of freshman sires after his 3 years olds hit the race track most are basically “shuffled off to Buffalo”.
[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7883986]
In 2010 there was Emery University study related to Thoroughbred stud fees. I’ve read it and there is no new information nor provocative thought in the study but it might be interesting to read for some of you. The address below has a link to download the dissertation.
https://etd.library.emory.edu/view/record/pid/emory:7tz22
BIG BROWN is an interesting case study. I remember commentators talking about his sire as not being prolific and the mare’s farm breeding program as somewhat of a scientific program. The remedial care that went into keeping BB racing should frightened any mare owner away from him. As I recall Bill Mott trained Boundary and he was retired due to a hoof problem.
Like PA, NY is getting some nice throw offs from KY, but I’m skeptical about BB. REAL QUIET spent four or five years in KY I think, while shuttling to Australia up through 2005, then he was sent to PA. Sadly, a paddock accident took his life a couple years back.
Wouldn’t we all like to have a share of DANZIG. His genes alone have gotten the Australian market abuzz. And to think Malibu Moon was just up the road in MD standing for song compared to today.[/QUOTE]
When I find the time I will read this. But this is not the first that I have come across. It makes for interesting reading for the layman. But in reality, well, watch the Rodney Dangerfield movie Back to School. His rebuttal to the stuffy business professor who goes on and on about how to set up a business pretty much explains it all. His rebuttal to the Viet Nam conflict is priceless.
IMO Big Brown and Smarty Jones are why the Clay Family lost ownership of Three Chimneys. The vast majority was sold to South American interests in a very hush deal in the last couple of years. The only “big” horse 3 Chimneys “made” was Rahy a Blushing Groom son. Standing, like Northern Dancer around 15-2. He was not an easy “sell”. He made it completely own his “own”. The best “proven” horse still standing at 3 Chims now and IMO one of the best values in Kentucky is Yes It’s True.
Big Brown’s minor soundness issues were/are of little concern to breeders. A lack of depth to his pedigree even being out of a Claiborne mare didn’t justify his fee. But even more so, much more so was his connections who had to retain a large part of the horse. Connections that had little to no “mare power” behind them. Connections who were very controversial. I could write a lengthy article on why this horse was destined to have “no chance”.
Stallion farms pay big money for “talking horses” no “talking owners”. Unfortunately the connections of CC don’t understand this principle.
I know the “back story” on Boundary very well. If he had not won the King’s Bishop he would have gone to South America. I had a standing offer to buy him on behalf of clients. Its acceptance was based on the outcome. My conversation with Seth Hancock after the race was a short one.
He was bred in partnership with a BIG long standing Claiborne client Mr. Perry, his middle name being Haggin a serious old school Ky foundation “hard boot” TB horse family. Raced in his wife’s name. They wanted to make a “case” to stand this horse. The King’s Bishop was just becoming and is now a “stallion prospect” must win race for older horses.
Being a breeder in a regional market the KY “throw offs” are just that to any serious commercial breeder. And for that matter someone who breeds to race. I breed to very few regional sires. The few that I do are with decent mares but not ones that justify the expense of sending to KY to be covered. I refer to them as my “program mares”. We only sell their yearlings in the “local” market and hope to break even at best in the ring. Regroup lost expenses and or get some “gravy” from breeder’s awards. So far it has worked out very well.
If I am going to breed to a stallion that stand for more than by and large $7,500 I will send the mare/s to KY and suck up of the board. All things being equal a horse standing in KY WILL get more respect in the ring. Regional “Retreads” are completely dismissed as far as getting a “fair price” by and large by anyone that knows what they are doing.
[QUOTE=Simkie;7884194]
They are. Why is it google’s fault that it found both pieces, which have been picked up by various websites?
TDN has both here: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/members/oped/index.cfm?authors_id=3
Liberation Farm has both here: http://www.liberationfarm.com/index2.htm[/QUOTE]
I have known Rob Whitely since the early 80’s. A personal friend and a person I have tremendous respect for.
This thread suddenly has me remembering Paul Mellon, who stood his stallions for reasonable fees, because he didn’t need the money and wanted to do his part to make good studs available to good mares. But it’s all business now.
[QUOTE=gumtree;7884369]
When I find the time I will read this. But this is not the first that I have come across. It makes for interesting reading for the layman. But in reality, well, watch the Rodney Dangerfield movie Back to School. His rebuttal to the stuffy business professor who goes on and on about how to set up a business pretty much explains it all. His rebuttal to the Viet Nam conflict is priceless.
IMO Big Brown and Smarty Jones are why the Clay Family lost ownership of Three Chimneys. The vast majority was sold to South American interests in a very hush deal in the last couple of years. The only “big” horse 3 Chimneys “made” was Rahy a Blushing Groom son. Standing, like Northern Dancer around 15-2. He was not an easy “sell”. He made it completely own his “own”. The best “proven” horse still standing at 3 Chims now and IMO one of the best values in Kentucky is Yes It’s True.
Big Brown’s minor soundness issues were/are of little concern to breeders. A lack of depth to his pedigree even being out of a Claiborne mare didn’t justify his fee. But even more so, much more so was his connections who had to retain a large part of the horse. Connections that had little to no “mare power” behind them. Connections who were very controversial. I could write a lengthy article on why this horse was destined to have “no chance”.
Stallion farms pay big money for “talking horses” no “talking owners”. Unfortunately the connections of CC don’t understand this principle.
I know the “back story” on Boundary very well. If he had not won the King’s Bishop he would have gone to South America. I had a standing offer to buy him on behalf of clients. Its acceptance was based on the outcome. My conversation with Seth Hancock after the race was a short one.
He was bred in partnership with a BIG long standing Claiborne client Mr. Perry, his middle name being Haggin a serious old school Ky foundation “hard boot” TB horse family. Raced in his wife’s name. They wanted to make a “case” to stand this horse. The King’s Bishop was just becoming and is now a “stallion prospect” must win race for older horses.
Being a breeder in a regional market the KY “throw offs” are just that to any serious commercial breeder. And for that matter someone who breeds to race. I breed to very few regional sires. The few that I do are with decent mares but not ones that justify the expense of sending to KY to be covered. I refer to them as my “program mares”. We only sell their yearlings in the “local” market and hope to break even at best in the ring. Regroup lost expenses and or get some “gravy” from breeder’s awards. So far it has worked out very well.
If I am going to breed to a stallion that stand for more than by and large $7,500 I will send the mare/s to KY and suck up of the board. All things being equal a horse standing in KY WILL get more respect in the ring. Regional “Retreads” are completely dismissed as far as getting a “fair price” by and large by anyone that knows what they are doing.[/QUOTE]
No rush to read the link. I said there was nothing to provoke any new thinking on the issue. When ag science researchers try to reach into the mind and soul of the horse industry, the results that are published have already be made public in some other fashion to include gossip and polite conversation.
I’ve watched the VA industry stall and fall to the depths of not having one reasonably good “regional” stallion." What ashame. Forgive me, it’s all KY’s fault. :lol: If Arthur Hancock had allowed his wits, rather than his hormones, to flourish the state of VA’s TB industry might be better today.
You know VA’s Fauquier County (our horse country for g-d sakes) once reached to what is now Lexington, KY. Once the foundation for the race horse market, we can’t even get a meet run at the lone track because the owner lives in OH. Now I ask you does any of this make sense? It’s all KY’s fault.
I’m sure you agree that the get of a regional stallion in MD, PA, DE, NJ, or NY at least has an opportunity to race at regional tracks. Finger Lakes, Delaware Park, Laurel, Colonial Downs, etc. run meets consistent with the quality of horses available. Certainly so with Colonial Downs because Jeff Jacobs can’t get any horses in his stalls therefore no meets. The point being that where there is need, there is a market unless you breed and race in VA.
You’ve told me something about Boundary that I wasn’t aware as it relates to SA opportunities. Very interesting.
The mares make the stallion. Ken Ramsey is very selective about who gets bred to Kitten’s Joy.
Wait, Boundary won the King’s Bishop? Also, isn’t it restricted to three year olds? Or has it not always been?
Maybe I’m misreading. Quite possible. It’s early and I haven’t had coffee. 
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