Stallions with a good jump and easygoing temperament?

[ohmissbrittany]

I have a percheron/TB mare who is an absolute joy to ride, game to fences and a cheeky chestnut, and just about the perfect mix of attributes- she looks like a big-boned TB. BUT she has a very short neck and a bad trot. She jumps more off of power than technique and I think this is a performance-limiting factor. She’s also on “high alert” mode near constantly, and it’s handy when I need her to take care of me on a jump course as an amateur, but just about everywhere else it gets obnoxious because she can go into “I’m not listening to a thing you say because of what’s going on over there!”

I’d like to breed her in 2016, but I don’t know enough about what’s out there! I owned a Cathalido daughter who was excellent, but he’s a big boy and I don’t want to go much bigger. I also don’t want too refined, as I mentioned I’d like to balance the front/back ends a bit more with a wider chest. I’d like to add some neck and some better trot, as well. Thoughts?

EDIT because some people seem to think I’m trying to breed trash:

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/10153707_10152967092616663_6271111246913055578_n.jpg?oh=4247dbddc59ed6c0af13ff66da5ac934&oe=55390257

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1907326_10152962742416663_976237256396872456_n.jpg?oh=5298f230f06732869c930ce4f93fc813&oe=5543030C&gda=1430607549_519ddb1f9d88832158e5928674ffe1fa

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10665847_10152792848871663_646202308103997829_n.jpg?oh=c1685f37995523f96030ef0b3d9a9c57&oe=5531EE90

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/999159_10151833470916663_2015005393_n.jpg?oh=f44c1b6c830d64d0cdf965e3a2a81679&oe=55079787&gda=1426186391_cfbe73426d996f6109e38c12c50d87bf

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10402499_10152559966736663_1175440893055887241_n.jpg?oh=72527a61e83b814633c9459022643dad&oe=5505BCCF&gda=1430274736_79020b18be4276a8b8fde1bd8c63ecba

Maybe I could have harped less on what I dislike, because she’s uphill built with a powerful hind quarter and straight strong legs- built to be sound and never lame. She’s tolerant of beginner mistakes and will jump from any spot without “punishing” the rider. Despite her spectacularly loose legs, she very rarely hits a pole, and with that short strong back she makes some great turns and is very adjustable.

Furthermore, I wouldn’t be breeding to sell, I would be breeding for me. I’m not looking to get a GP horse out of her, maybe mini-prix and AO jumper.

[netg]

What about this poorly built grade mare with a bad temperament makes you want to breed her?

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that’s what everyone reading your post is going to think…

[epowers]

Yeah, I’d have to agree, I can’t see any reason for breeding the mare you described. You’re probably better off saving the money you would have put toward breeding and care, and just buy a young prospect you like.

[SportArab]

Why not lease a mare that is better suited to your goals?

[babecakes]

There is a history of some very detailed threads on here that clearly explain the costs and risks in breeding vs buying a ready 3-4 yr old that you can judge the horse in front of you and get exactly what you want.

None of the wisened breeders here will support using a problematic mare for breeding. The breeding costs, labor, time and risks are not worth breeding a grade mare that has issues. The saying goes don’t breed anything that you wouldn’t want to get back 100%. Genetics don’t deliver per wish list.

[Lulu123]

Roc USA will give you a longer neck and athletic cattiness. His babies are quite agile. Not sure if he will give you the trot you want but his babies are very amateur friendly. He himself has good bone and is very medium framed. His babies are leggy and usually 16.1 to 16.3 hh. Can throw jumper or hunter types. Depends on the mare. I see a lot of his babies since my mare is boarded where he is standing in Woodstock. He definitely improves on the mare.

[ohmissbrittany]

Is she really that poorly built? …not according to my vet. And I don’t dislike her at all. I just think some things could be improved.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/10153707_10152967092616663_6271111246913055578_n.jpg?oh=4247dbddc59ed6c0af13ff66da5ac934&oe=55390257

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1907326_10152962742416663_976237256396872456_n.jpg?oh=5298f230f06732869c930ce4f93fc813&oe=5543030C&gda=1430607549_519ddb1f9d88832158e5928674ffe1fa

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10665847_10152792848871663_646202308103997829_n.jpg?oh=c1685f37995523f96030ef0b3d9a9c57&oe=5531EE90

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/999159_10151833470916663_2015005393_n.jpg?oh=f44c1b6c830d64d0cdf965e3a2a81679&oe=55079787&gda=1426186391_cfbe73426d996f6109e38c12c50d87bf

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10402499_10152559966736663_1175440893055887241_n.jpg?oh=72527a61e83b814633c9459022643dad&oe=5505BCCF&gda=1430274736_79020b18be4276a8b8fde1bd8c63ecba

Maybe I could have harped less on what I dislike, because she’s uphill built with a powerful hind quarter and straight strong legs. She’s tolerant of beginner mistakes and will jump from any spot without “punishing” the rider. Despite her spectacularly loose legs, she very rarely hits a pole, and with that short strong back she makes some great turns and is very adjustable.

[ohmissbrittany]

Thanks for not jumping on the “The mare is grade and must be trash” bandwagon! Roc will definitely be on my list!

[ohmissbrittany]

You’re right. I guess I should have listed the positives as well. I’ve added images to the original post to clarify that she actually has pretty nice conformation, and other positive attributes. Obviously the negative ones are the ones I worry about because they can be improved upon.

[ohmissbrittany]

[QUOTE=netg;7922919]
What about this poorly built grade mare with a bad temperament makes you want to breed her?

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure that’s what everyone reading your post is going to think…[/QUOTE]

You’re right. I guess I should have listed the positives as well. I’ve added images to the original post to clarify that she actually has pretty nice conformation, and other positive attributes. Obviously the negative ones are the ones I worry about because they can be improved upon.

[netg]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;7922895]
I have a percheron/TB mare who is an absolute joy to ride, game to fences and a cheeky chestnut, and just about the perfect mix of attributes- she looks like a big-boned TB. BUT she has a very short neck, terrible trot, and narrow chest; she jumps more off of power than technique and this is a performance-limiting factor. She’s also on “high alert” mode near constantly, and it’s handy when I need her to take care of me on a jump course as an amateur, but just about everywhere else it gets obnoxious because she’ll give herself ulcers stressing and can go into “I’m not listening to a thing you say because of what’s going on over there!” VERY mareish.

I’d like to breed her in 2016, but I don’t know enough about what’s out there! I owned a Cathalido daughter who was excellent, but he’s a big boy and I don’t want to go much bigger. I also don’t want too refined, as I mentioned I’d like to balance the front/back ends a bit more with a wider chest. I’d like to add some neck and some better trot, as well. Thoughts?

EDIT because some people seem to think I’m trying to breed trash:

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/10153707_10152967092616663_6271111246913055578_n.jpg?oh=4247dbddc59ed6c0af13ff66da5ac934&oe=55390257

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1907326_10152962742416663_976237256396872456_n.jpg?oh=5298f230f06732869c930ce4f93fc813&oe=5543030C&gda=1430607549_519ddb1f9d88832158e5928674ffe1fa

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10665847_10152792848871663_646202308103997829_n.jpg?oh=c1685f37995523f96030ef0b3d9a9c57&oe=5531EE90

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/999159_10151833470916663_2015005393_n.jpg?oh=f44c1b6c830d64d0cdf965e3a2a81679&oe=55079787&gda=1426186391_cfbe73426d996f6109e38c12c50d87bf

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10402499_10152559966736663_1175440893055887241_n.jpg?oh=72527a61e83b814633c9459022643dad&oe=5505BCCF&gda=1430274736_79020b18be4276a8b8fde1bd8c63ecba

Maybe I could have harped less on what I dislike, because she’s uphill built with a powerful hind quarter and straight strong legs. She’s tolerant of beginner mistakes and will jump from any spot without “punishing” the rider. Despite her spectacularly loose legs, she very rarely hits a pole, and with that short strong back she makes some great turns and is very adjustable.[/QUOTE]

The pictures aren’t terrible, but everything is too straight in her conformation - shoulder, hind legs, pasterns.

With a terrible trot, bad form over fences and a basically overall lack of performance, again, why would you want to breed her?

[ohmissbrittany]

If you’re not going to answer my question with something helpful, I’d appreciate you just staying out of it.

There is nothing illegal about breeding a horse that you like to get a slightly better foal- it’s not like I’m starting a farm full of backyard trash to sell, I just want a youngster (FOR ME) and I really like the mare. She’s sound, built to be sound, and athletic. That’s more than a lot of people can say for their buck-kneed, busted-suspensory “fancy” warmbloods they continue to breed and sell.

[camohn]

First I have to agree that it does sound like the negatives outweigh the positives on this mare, so not an ideal brood mare . But moving along from that I would not breed her to a WB. A WB/ draft cross is likely to be a really heavy horse as no matter what she looks like she can and very well may throw back to the draft grandparent. I would stick to a TB and not add a third breed to the mix.

[Lulu123]

She isn’t terrible. I’ve seen people breed lots worse. She actually looks like she has a kind eye. And if you look at Roc’s pedigree, he has Galoubet (which actually has trotter in the pedigree) as well as thoroughbred on the dam side. So his dam side is infused with a lot of Thoroughbred. He doesn’t throw heavy

[beowulf]

I think your mare is very cute. I think your pictures are unflattering though.

However, what NO one has mentioned is that breeding F1/F2 crosses can be very unpredictable. Personally, I would advise against it – not because your mare isn’t nice, but because once you go past the first ‘outcrossing’ you really have no idea how or what certain things are going to show up in the resulting offspring.

A good example of F1/F2 crosses NOT working is the Puggle. When you breed the beagle and the pug you reliably get a consistent type:THIS – however, when you breed two PUGGLES together, the offspring are inconsistent in type/color/temperament.

The same, I imagine, goes for when you combine a Percheron and a TB. You may get a horse that looks like a frankenhorse. Because your mare did not come from the same consistent types, it is unlikely she will pass on that type consistently.

[ohmissbrittany]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7923609]
However, what NO one has mentioned is that breeding F1/F2 crosses can be very unpredictable. [/QUOTE]

This is actually a very good point. The first scientifically relevant thing that’s been said. Thank you!

I have seen some nice 3/4 TB’s, and Formula One standing at Tamarack is 7/8 TB 1/8 ID I believe. I never asked specifically about WB’s- any sporthorse really, and a lot of them have more TB blood these days anyway.

Like I said, I just want to breed one for me, and if I can improve my mare’s weak points, that would be great.

[stoicfish]

I have seen some nice 3/4 TB’s, and Formula One standing at Tamarack is 7/8 TB 1/8 ID I believe. I never asked specifically about WB’s- any sporthorse really, and a lot of them have more TB blood these days anyway.

Actually, not really, there is always between 25-50% but it is not usually up close.

Do you want fresh or frozen?
Look for a stallion that has a really high value for type. The registries have these numbers available. Also look for a stallion that throws excellent technique and quick reflexes. If you are not breeding for a year, do a ton of research and get to know what is out there. You are not going to learn a lot from asking for suggestions, as you will either get a stallion owner plugging their horse or someone recommending a stallion that they like personally.

There is hundreds of stallions out there. Look at all the major Verbands web pages. They list all of their stallions. These stallions are tested and approved so a better quality then the unapproved “Wb” stallion next door. That includes all the Hunter stallions that are really dressage bred or hunter stallions that could not get approved with a registry.
There is more then one right choice so you have to make that decision for yourself. My only recommendation is not to cheap out on the stud fee. If you are going to do this and will keep the foal for yourself, then pick the best stallion you can. It will not fix everything but it gives the foal the best chance.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/2014_sire_ranking_jumping_top_100.pdf

[siegi_b]

… what Beowolf has said times 10! Given the background of your mare, you could end up with a foal that has short legs and a heavy body, or skinny legs with a heavy body and short neck, and everything in between.

As a breeder for the past 30 years I have learned to look at what’s behind a mare/stallion because the traits of the grand- and great-grand parents have a way of showing up in the new generation.

Good luck with your breeding decision…

[szipi]

The above post and responses bring up a very interesting observation. Most horse owners in the U.S. are not wealthy nor they are very educated riders. Most cannot afford high quality, often imported mares to emulate European breeders. Most admire the performance of horses in the top of the sport and they would like to own/ride/show something of nicer quality if they can afford it. Some have also been looked down on and been subjected to snotty remarks by the more fortunate owners/riders at horse shows.
So now, when they are actually trying to educate themselves and attempt to come up with a way to pursue the sport at a higher level, the same snotty people tell the mare owners that their mares are pieces of sh…t and they should not even be thinking about breeding unless they have a boatload of money.

I have seen (and ridden) plenty of draft crosses, quarterhorses, saddlebred crosses, grade horses that were perfect match with their owners and performed great at their level.

If the right stallion is chosen, there is no reason why these mare owners can’t obtain their goal - to produce foals that are great improvement over the mares and end up performing at a lot higher level for the owners. Let’s not forget - most of these owners are not in the breeding business, they don’t have intentions to sell these foals as grand prix prospects - most of them only want improved editions of their beloved mares (who, most of the time, have quite a few good qualities) that they or their children can ride at higher levels of the sport.

The goal is to get the most benefit out of the F1 generation (and interestingly, a lot of times this F1 produces great sporthorses, because of the unintended hybrid consequence of breeding animals with very different genetic background).
In my experience, the goal here is quite attainable when choosing the right stallion. The choice should not be based on magazine ads, online forum chats or internet rumors - or the example of one or a few. The best stallion for these half-draft mares has to be very pre-potent: one with very high % of TB blood, one who consistently passes on a very leggy, modern type - and the combination of great, elastic movement and jumping ability. Last, but not least, the stallion has to produce offspring with great temperament and rideability - especially because these foals will be born into an amateur environment, being raised/ridden by amateurs.

I am lucky to have bred and to own such an extremely pre-potent Holsteiner stallion, Lotus T. An maybe because of my low standing on the economic ladder, I could not afford to turn away mare owners with lesser mares, after dozens of foals out of these non-traditional sporthorse mares, I can state with very high certainty that Lotus T consistently thrown his own type and abilities, with great temperament. Some of these foals have been taken to inspections and ended up with respectable to spectacular results and ended up performing great in the show ring.

[SportArab]

I would go with something lighter, like an Anglo, an Arab, or a Thoroughbred.