I have a gelding from my PMU mare who is 1/2 Percheron 1/2 Tb and was a bit of an accident. She was bred by a weanling Hanoverian colt and my guy was a big surprise to say the least. He is 1/2 Hanoverian 1/4 Percheron 1/4 Tb. Up until he was started under saddle at 4yrs. old I really had not idea what to think about him. But he is turning out to be an amazing horse with a fantastic jump and canter. His mother was a 2 mover but my guy somehow has this beautiful canter and with a lot of work his trot is coming along. He is eventing now which suits him as he is very strong and has really good endurance. This fall he was 2nd in a very competitive YEH class in California which I was so proud of.
If you are looking to breed your mare I would say from my experience that you never know what she will produce because of her breeding, but you may just get very lucky like I did. The Percheron side will create a very hardy horse for the future. I would look for a lighter frame stallion for the match but do not rule out a full warmblood as that was what my gelding’s sire was and it turned out to be a nice cross.
Good luck!
My Guaranteed Gold stallion (TB) has been bred to a really diverse blend of full and parts Drafts - Clyde’s, Percheron’s, Shire, Belgian, etc and he absolutely does pretty up the foals, give them lighter, longer movement, longer necks, etc but when he is bred to the HALF Drafts, the lightness and elegance of the TB infusion really comes through - a lot! 
http://www.truecoloursfarm.com/guaranteed-gold---draft-cross-foals.html
I found with my stallion he doesn’t take away from the substance, but he definitely adds the lightness and elegance
If you are convinced WB is the way to go with her, I like the Roc USA suggestion and I would think a lot of the lighter Selle Francais stallions would be a good way to go. I hate to actually recommend Redwine, but he has Arabian in the 2nd or 3rd generation - if you can find a similarily bred stallion, having an Arab influence in there might help in your end goal as well
Good luck in your search!
In the mid-Atlantic prior to the WB invasion the 1/4 perch/ 3/4 xx was a desired cross for the hunt field etc. I agree with the suggestion to go with a xx stallion that really stamps his get–or as an outlier I also have seen pictures of a fantastic Tzigane (TRAK) /perch cross- moving up the eventing levels–that stallion also seems to be very pre-potent for type.
Maybe you should look into a nice Trakehner stallion to refine your mare. They are lighter than other WB breeds and have wonderful temperaments.
I’m not going to jump all over the OP and tell her what to do or what not to do with her own horse and her own money. The expenses, risks and downside are obvious.
But I must mention there is nothing like the pleasure a homebred gives an
owner. My current saddle horse is the granddaughter of a very nice TB mare I owned and this mare is coming along beautifully…I know everything that has gone into her since she was born on my property, she’s never had anything but top care and handling - to the best of my ability - and I’m thrilled to have her. She is gorgeous, willing, smart and sweet.
This is worth a lot to me, unless the OP’s mare is a real dog, which she does not sound like.
The ideal is to breed the best to the best and hope for the best, and also know that at sometime this baby may have to be for sale.
I’d go with a TB if I were breeding her.
You might look at Default at Little Hawk Farm in Virginia. He has a lovely pedigree and was lovely himself when he was younger.
http://littlehawkfarm.com/default%20stallion.html
They stand a Percheron stallion for foxhunters. They have other stallions who are worth looking at as well.
That IS a really nice looking TB… Will need to keep him on my radar…
I am another that doesn’t see the OP’s mare as “trash”. She could use more angle to her shoulder & pasterns (probably why her trot is not the best), abit of a longer neck, but those are the only glaring faults I see.
I DO want to underscore the idea of choosing a stallion who is known to throw the type & temperament you are seeking out of a wide variety of mares; while this is no guarantee, it will stack the deck more in your favor of getting the improvements you are looking for in the foal.
I would also vote to use a TB stallion or a WB stallion stallion w/lots of TB blood. Have you consider Sea Account? I honestly don’t know what sort of temperament he throws, but I know he’s does some eventing and so has the jump.
It’s a shame A Fine Romance isn’t still breeding. I don’t suppose AFR left behind a breeding son?
I am happy to see someone use my Puggle example I used to explain F2 generations a few years ago:) I think it really clarifies the inconsistencies of breeding using dog characteristics as they are easier to see and understand.
Having said that you can really reduce your chances of a Frankenhorse by using a “purebred” stallion. For example, if you breed a puggle to a pug you are going to get many more pug characteristics as the offspring will essentially be 3/4 pug. Breeding a puggle to a puggle will give you every variation and them some you couldn’t even dream:) So I would go with a 100% Tb stallion and there are some really nice ones out there. I think Sea Accounts is a great example of an available US stallion. If you are not afraid to try frozen I think Favoritas could produce a fantastic offspring. He is available frozen but I don’t know how good the semen is…superior equine sires carries him and Carol can answer that.
Another option maybe and Irish Draught with a high % of Tb. I do not know anything about the IRD horses, but there are some folks on the board who do. The reason I would suggest maybe looking in that direction is the body type of a draft (your percheron 1/2) is more similar to that of the draught horse. Hence, you may get a bit more predictability especially if using one with a lot of Tb. They are also known to produce eveners/ jumpers so more to what you are wanting in terms of function.
We are getting what you want from our Irish Draught stallion, Beeston Laird, on a mix of mares. If you used an Irish Draught like Laird…one who is uphill and throws that consistently when crossed on a variety of mares(QH,TB,WB, ISH, Friesian Sport, Draft sport) then you have a better idea that you will get what you are after. Because an Irish Draught already should have substance you don’t have the problem of getting lighter horse bits and pieces(modern warmbloods have gotten quite light in frame)…a too small cannon bone and foot but a heavy draft body. So you should get the substance you have now, but if the heavy draft pops in, the limbs and frame from the ID cross should be able to support that. Everyone is right in that you do not know what your mare is genetically so you have a chance of getting surprise bits and pieces…like a large head…and you want a frame that can still support that. It does make sense to buy crossbreds as opposed to breed them especially with first time mares. We do crossbreeding but we are using mares that have proven they can produce commercial sport horse foals for market. If they didn’t meld well with others… Friesians and Irish Draughts and now a Gypsy stallion, then they were started and sold as nice riding horses. PatO
I guess I disagree with the people suggesting you go to a light horse like a TB, Trak, or high percentage TB warmblood. You are not taking a draft mare to the light horse…in that case it is a better gamble…you are taking a mare who is a mix of genetics. I would stay more with a like substance…either an Irish Draught or a traditional older type warmblood but yet with the improved body conformation and sport horse balance you are looking for. Don’t change everything in this cross. You may find that after a foal or two your mare throws very predictably, then you can gamble more with substance and a more drastic change. I am no purist. I think your chosen mare can be wonderful to use for breeding. I would be very stringent that she be well proven as to temperament, trainability, athletic suitability, durability, and soundness. PatO
But adding a wb to the mix IS changing it/ adding a third breed to the cross. Folks are mostly suggesting TB or mostly TB because it is already a TB cross… Adds consistency to the mix. Old style WB plus the good chance the draft will come through from one parent = good chance of horse a saurus …
[QUOTE=camohn;7929554]
But adding a wb to the mix IS changing it/ adding a third breed to the cross. Folks are mostly suggesting TB or mostly TB because it is already a TB cross… Adds consistency to the mix. Old style WB plus the good chance the draft will come through from one parent = good chance of horse a saurus …[/QUOTE]
I think there is some value to going on phenotype in these situations. I have seen Tb’s that are more substantial then some Wb’s (and really decent ones) so it becomes a bit of a cliché to assume that the Tb side is extremely refined. I have one horse out of a very refined Tb (a ranch horse) and a Wb out of a 16.2h tank of a Tb that had more bone than many of the young “modern” Wb’s.
If a Tb is done right, they are certainly strong boned. I wouldn’t rule out a Wb as many Wb’s are developed from Tb bloodlines and many are refined.
And I think the other poster was trying to make the point that if you add another substantial pedigree to the mix, you are increasing the chances of the offspring being of a consistent type as opposed to 3/4 Tb with some draft aspects, which might stick out.
And a older style Wb would be more consistent with the draft side.
Let’s face it, until she has several foals, it is a complete crap shoot as to what she will throw, and only at that point could a educated decision be made.
I really think at this point that you are breeding an unknown with there being no odds as to which way to go. That is why you do not usually use mare like this for breeding. Hence the warnings, but if someone is going to be responsible and happy with the results no matter what then…
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7929991]
Let’s face it, until she has several foals, it is a complete crap shoot as to what she will throw, and only at that point could a educated decision be made.
I really think at this point that you are breeding an unknown with there being no odds as to which way to go. That is why you do not usually use mare like this for breeding. Hence the warnings, but if someone is going to be responsible and happy with the results no matter what then…[/QUOTE]
I would argue that breeding a maiden of any breed or type for the first time is a crapshoot. While a daughter from your best producing broodie MIGHT be more predictable, it’s not a guarantee. After all 40-50% of their genetics come from the stallion.
That’s why it would be vital for the OP to look at stallions who are consistent in their production of certain traits o/o a wide variety of mares. And others are correct when they say that this mare isn’t likely to produce a top-level horse, but if the OP is SURE she will be breeding for her own use and will be perfectly happy with the outcome not matter what, then I’ve certainly seen worse mares out there.
I would use a TB with bone & foot, etc. For instance, Salute the Truth. I don’t know what sort of temperament he throws, but if you check out his webpage, they actually brag about the size of his cannons & his big, sturdy feet. http://www.dodonfarm.com/willy1.html
Good for them! Nice to see a stallion owner be so forthcoming about their boy’s underpinnings. STT doesn’t have the fanciest trot in the world (he also looks abit straight in the shoulder) but if you read the info, Steuart says he produces better. And, since the OP is mainly interested in eventing/jumping, if I was going to “give up” any one particular trait, I’d give up a fancy trot.
You can do ALOT to fancy up a trot, but it’s tough to fix bad feet, insufficient bone & a wonky mind.
I actually like this boy ALOT and I’m thinking about him for my Akhal Teke mare.
I’m surprised. I think she’s a nice looking horse. She may be a bit big in the head and neck but the rest of her looks good to me. A sound strong horse is a way better option for breeding than the numerous tbs and warmbloods who are only pasture sound so their owner decide they’ll breed them instead.
[QUOTE=DaniW;7930052]
I’m surprised. I think she’s a nice looking horse. She may be a bit big in the head and neck but the rest of her looks good to me. A sound strong horse is a way better option for breeding than the numerous tbs and warmbloods who are only pasture sound so their owner decide they’ll breed them instead.[/QUOTE]
It really depends on why they are pasture sound.
I cannot argue against only breeding a better quality of mare but Wb’s are bred for sport so they strive for more qualities than just sound.
Many grade horses are sound but are not that athletic. They do not have the ability that is often the cause of the issues.
You have to remember that many Wb’s and Tb’s are asked to do very strenuous activities, so the rate of breakdown is bound to be higher. But think of all the Wb’s that are jumping/winning at 16-18yrs old or the fact that dressage horses really get good after 10.
As a breed I don’t think you can knock them too hard in comparison.
Although if people continue to expect so much at the younger ages, then you will see more breakdown.
So all these differences of opinion are also the differences that one is faced with breeding a cross bred horse. Point well made here that breeding against types results in a pot full of unknowns.
It’s the OP’s gamble if they chose to want to breed and raise a foal. It is not the easiest way to go. Everything’s pretty much 50/50. You’ll get lucky or not.
I suggested the thoroughbred because that is one half of the cross already.
There are many different types of TB phenotype, and a diligent search in the local area will probably find many that are off the radar, breeding in small numbers for sports other than racing. Someone just found a TB in South Carolina that is standing for polo for instance. Then more research to find out what the horse’s foals come out like from different types of mare. Then a comparison of the mare’s conformation with that of various stallions to try and find one that is similar phenotypically and improves the aspects that need improving.
I personally think that the OP would have better luck breeding within her mare’s gene pool because the outcome is more predictable.
If the OP will do imported frozen, both Favoritas and Roven xx were show jumpers back in the day.
Does the OP have a pedigree for the TB part of the mare that she can post?
I’m voting with the thoroughbred stallion camp on this one. Agree with doing a lot of research on what he is stamping (or not). Agree with finding a bigger boned TB with good angles, who passes that on.
That said, I know a gal who had a heavier PMU (Hannoverian x draft/TB) mare and she consistently out-produced herself. Her best cross was her last–by a British Riding pony of all things. Cute little hony for a 5’1" adult amateur.
Regardless of the rest of the attributes or non-attributes of the mare, you need to improve on the pasterns for any hope of being sound for a career in jumping.
