I know what they are, but with thousands of them, they are nothing but numbers without context.
I am looking at a filly by Cassini II, with a “family number” of 95. Would that be her Stamm? Her 4th and 5th dams are Geisha and Athen. Should I be able to figure out her Stamm from that?
She would be Stamm 95. Hopefully one of the Holsteiner breeders can give you more information.
Lol, this is how I feel about dosage, CD’s, etc, which I’m sure you understand well! 
Yes, her stamm is 95: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/721089 Some further information on the stamm can be found here: http://www.holsteiner-stutenstaemme.com/de/holsteiner_stutenstamm95.html The horses in red are approved stallions, the ones in blue are a small sampling of the top sport horses from the family/stamm. More info here: http://www.holsteiner95.de/index.php?id=stamm95. This filly’s particular branch of the stamm is responsible for a number of horses successful to 1.60m in jumping and Grand Prix in dressage: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/721089
When looking at stamms I go first to horsetelex and look at the progeny for the horse’s mother and grandmother. If the production is good in these generations my interest in piqued. I may go one generation farther if the branch is a young one, as in this one as this filly is her mother’s first foal. However, this branch is well represented by her State Premium grandmother, Zenit, who is the mother of an internationally successful 1.50m horse, Bundeschampionate competitors, year end award winners in both dressage and jumping, NA licensed and approved stallion sons, a son successful to Grand Prix in dressage, and another daughter who has produced horses successful in both dressage and jumping: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/134823. Zenit, herself, won her Mare Performance Test in Elmshorn, Germany. Zenit’s sisters are exceptional producers as well with multiple 1.60m horses and GP dressage horses.
I am, obviously, familiar with this branch 
Hopefully, the Holst gurus can chime in with some thoughts on the overall family further.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/134819
Looks like 95.
I like idea of stamms, it is interesting from a genetic point of view. However, after 4 or 5 generations from any one mare, the knowledge is somewhat diluted, genetically speaking. I think the value has to do more with the breeders of those stamms. As those mares are held tight to their breeders in Holst breeding, the results are more to do with the knowledge of that breeder. If you gave me a mare of a certain stamm, here in Canada and I only bred her to local horses, you would see a very different type of horse in 3 gens then you would 3 gens later from a full sibling that had stayed with a certain breeder. Plus Holst uses so much line breeding that those lines can be compounded and reinforced and therefore not as lost or diluted.
I do think it is a good way to get to know the genetics of a mare line as the offspring are limited, unlike a stallion. So you use the family to characterize the group, but it is still a shifting target as the breeder (and his/her philosophy) of the mare will have so much input of the results.
In other words I would have less faith in the stamm of the mare if she was several generations from original Holst breeders/knowledge.
Now Im curious on this as well
This mare that we have
http://www.mapleway.ca/detail_catalina.html
is also by Cassini II. Does that make her a Stamm 95 as well or is the Stamm awarded for the dam line? She is out of a Riverman mare
And Lord Helpus - when people see this picture and I tell them she is a Cassini II, everyone says they KNEW thats who her sire was as he stamps them in exactly the same manner each and every time. Does your Cassini II filly look like this as well?
From the Holsteiner Verband (http://auswaertige-holsteiner-zuechter.de/front_content.php?idcat=30&idart=38&changelang=4):
The history of the Holsteiner horse can be traced back to 1225. As early as in the 16th century, when sturdy yet elegant riding and carriage horses were bred, export was of great importance. The Hanoverian state stud Celle started operating with 12 Holsteiner stallions in 1735. By the end of the 18th century, foresighted Holsteiner breeders had realized the importance of a consistent documentation of the female lines. A simple number code was developed and established. In this context, one name deserves a special mention: Georg Ahsbahs. He published the first volume of the “Gestütsbücher in den holsteinischen Marschen” (studbooks of the Holstein marshland) in 1886. He started collecting pedigree information in the Elbe marshes, attributed the horses to the appropriate female lines and assigned numbers to these lines. Hence the so-called stem numbers evolved, which are still continued. The female lines with the low stem numbers originate from the Elbe marshes, where Georg Ahsbahs started compiling the pedigree information, which means that the consecutive numbering does not involve any ranking of the stems according to value or success.
Stem numbers are passed on through the foals and printed in the registration papers according to the female lines/stems listed in the Holsteiner Verband stem register. Each foal is given the its dam’s stem number.
Upon request, the Verband will assign new stem numbers, provided that the last 4 generations have been registered in the Verband studbook.
So far, 8900 stems have come into existence. By now, due to the great structural changes in farming, most of them have disappeared again.
In 1949, 16376 registered mares were listed, in 1960 only 1300. In 1990, the number had increased to 4800 registered mares. The about 7800 registered broodmares listed in 2006 come from only 515 stems.
The entire breed rests upon the quality of the female lines.
^^^ Ah - okay! Great explanation - thank you 
So the Verband will trace Stem lines in much the same way as breeders of TB race horses will trace the Blue Hen mares found in pedigrees realizing the validity they provide in their breeding and racing programs
I checked back to see when Stamm 95 started. It goes back to about 1830 with a mare named Mike . That was TWENTY generations ago. If Mike (cracks me up) had 2 fillies with different sires, then the original blood started diluting 19 generations ago.
Based purely on that criteria (going back to the first generation of each stamm) it seems to me that the concept of Stamms is pretty meaningless now.
When people advertise or say that “XXX is Stamm #yyyy, which is one of the best Stamms in the Holsteiner stud book”, how many generations are they going back, to have the data which can support such a claim?
Which leads me to ask: which stamms are really “good Stamms”? As a new-to-the-breed buyer I am trying to figure out if I should consider/be impressed by such claims.
In the TB world, I go back 5 generations to look at ancestors which might have had a direct influence on the horse in question. At that level, each horse’s genes only comprise 3% of the genetic make up of the “end result” horse. IMO, anything further back has such a negligible influence as to be meaningless.
Do German breeders think otherwise? If so, what is their rationale for crediting genetic influences farther back? Is there a standard for making such claims, or is each person’s statement (re: important influence) a matter of opinion (which is what seems to be the case from replies I have gotten)
Not trying to be argumentative; I am really interested to find out how my knowledge of TB predigrees can be transferred over to learning more about WB pedigrees.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7254845]
I checked back to see when Stamm 95 started. It goes back to about 1830 with a mare named Mike . That was TWENTY generations ago. If Mike (cracks me up) had 2 fillies with different sires, then the original blood started diluting 19 generations ago.
Based purely on that criteria (going back to the first generation of each stamm) it seems to me that the concept of Stamms is pretty meaningless now.
When people advertise or say that “XXX is Stamm #yyyy, which is one of the best Stamms in the Holsteiner stud book”, how many generations are they going back, to have the data which can support such a claim?
Which leads me to ask: which stamms are really “good Stamms”? As a new-to-the-breed buyer I am trying to figure out if I should consider/be impressed by such claims.
In the TB world, I go back 5 generations to look at ancestors which might have had a direct influence on the horse in question. At that level, each horse’s genes only comprise 3% of the genetic make up of the “end result” horse. IMO, anything further back has such a negligible influence as to be meaningless.
Do German breeders think otherwise? If so, what is their rationale for crediting genetic influences farther back? Is there a standard for making such claims, or is each person’s statement (re: important influence) a matter of opinion (which is what seems to be the case from replies I have gotten)
Not trying to be argumentative; I am really interested to find out how my knowledge of TB predigrees can be transferred over to learning more about WB pedigrees.[/QUOTE]
“The concept of stamms is pretty meaningless now” ? Wow , you do have a lot to learn.
Each daughter has been carefully selected from the mother for breeding. She has been selected based on the characteristics that she presents with from the mother , thus keeping the breeder very familiar with the characteristics of every mare in the line ,thus making the stallion selection so much easier.
When you trek around the fields of Holstein , you will no doubt become aware of who is who’s mother.
Holstein currently holds 12 of the top 25 mare families (stamms) in the world , of all breeds for the production of international showjumpers including #1 , #2, #3 and 9 more. The stamms of 776 , 104a , 474a , 1916 , 890 , 162 ,242 etc. are perennial power houses and are anything but diluted or meaningless.
Be careful not to ever say stamms are meaningless in Europe as you will insult generations of human families and you will no doubt light a fire that you can’t put out.
The stamms of 776 , 104a , 474a , 1916 , 890 , 162 ,242 etc. are perennial power houses and are anything but diluted or meaningless.
So -the knowledge of the specific characteristics that are inherent in each of these stamms will reliable go forward through each successive generation thus making the breeding decisions more conclusive as to what the end product will actually be as there is a definitive history following each of these stamms?
It’s worth noting that mitochondrial DNA is transmitted via the dam line. Mitochondrial DNA is believed to play important roles in metabolism, development and aging, and possibly fertility.
[QUOTE=TrueColours;7254938]
So -the knowledge of the specific characteristics that are inherent in each of these stamms will reliable go forward through each successive generation thus making the breeding decisions more conclusive as to what the end product will actually be as there is a definitive history following each of these stamms?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Sometimes a generation will skip…then the breeder will cull this mare from the line. Selection is everything.
Also , regarding your post below , we have known for sometime that the mare passes on the jump gene. This is why testing the daughter at home or at an official test before actually deciding to insert her in the continuing stamm , is vital.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7254903]
“The concept of Stamms is pretty meaningless now” ? Wow , you do have a lot to learn.
Each daughter has been carefully selected from the mother for breeding. She has been selected based on the characteristics that she presents with from the mother , thus keeping the breeder very familiar with the characteristics of every mare in the line ,thus making the stallion selection so much easier.
When you trek around the fields of Holstein , you will no doubt become aware of who is who’s mother.
Holstein currently holds 12 of the top 25 mare families (Stamms) in the world , of all breeds for the production of international show jumpers including #1 , #2, #3 and 9 more. The Stamms of 776 , 104a , 474a , 1916 , 890 , 162 ,242 etc. are perennial power houses and are anything but diluted or meaningless.
Be careful not to ever say Stamms are meaningless in Europe as you will insult generations of human families and you will no doubt light a fire that you can’t put out.[/QUOTE]
Thank you Bayhawk. This is the kind of information I was hoping to get. I know that I know nothing – What I do know is TB breeding and I am trying to see how much of that knowledge can be extrapolated into WB breeding.
Several follow up questions:
Since much of this information is in German and I do not speak or read that language, is there a resource I can use to make me feel comfortable that I have “done my homework” sufficiently so that I am buying a horse which truly is a good representative of the breed?
Thank you for helping me through a very steep learning curve.
PS: Please forgive me if there are questions which are asking for the same information. I have written this post over several sessions and I may easily be repeating myself.
Too many questions Lord Helpus. I would be here for a week answering them…LOL !
Here is a link to the stamms. http://www.holsteiner-stutenstaemme.com/uk/england.html You can muddle thru it without knowing German.
Selection is not based off whether the mare is premium or what book she is in. Selection is based off what the breeder is looking for in the replacement daughter or a daughter to add to the herd. They can usually see this in the foal and then they will raise and test. If they don’t like what they see at 2 or 3 yrs of age , they will cull/sell.
Real Holsteiners have a stamm # such as 776.
Outside wb mothers in the Holsteiner registry will have a stamm that starts with an “A”
Outside mothers in the Holsteiner registry that originate from TB mothers will have a stamm that starts with a “Q”.
There will be no “A” or “Q” stamms originating directly from Holstein…only here in the AHHA.
Stamms are the Holstein equivalent of TB Family numbers in many ways. Tail Female line so the mitochondria will always be the same in the same stamm.
Aren’t stamms somehow associated with particular breeders and their broodmare herds?
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7253977]
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/134819
Looks like 95.
I like idea of stamms, it is interesting from a genetic point of view. However, after 4 or 5 generations from any one mare, the knowledge is somewhat diluted, genetically speaking. I think the value has to do more with the breeders of those stamms. As those mares are held tight to their breeders in Holst breeding, the results are more to do with the knowledge of that breeder. If you gave me a mare of a certain stamm, here in Canada and I only bred her to local horses, you would see a very different type of horse in 3 gens then you would 3 gens later from a full sibling that had stayed with a certain breeder. Plus Holst uses so much line breeding that those lines can be compounded and reinforced and therefore not as lost or diluted.
I do think it is a good way to get to know the genetics of a mare line as the offspring are limited, unlike a stallion. So you use the family to characterize the group, but it is still a shifting target as the breeder (and his/her philosophy) of the mare will have so much input of the results.
In other words I would have less faith in the stamm of the mare if she was several generations from original Holst breeders/knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting discussion. But it does sound like the characteristics/values of a stamm line depends on how vigorously a breeder is willing to cull his broodmare band.
A question for Bayhawk: when presenting a mare for approval in Holstein, do the inspectors taken into consideration the Stamm and how closely that particular mare adheres to the qualities of that line?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7257032]
Stamms are the Holstein equivalent of TB Family numbers in many ways. Tail Female line so the mitochondria will always be the same in the same stamm.
Aren’t stamms somehow associated with particular breeders and their broodmare herds?[/QUOTE]
Yes , one man took it upon himself to go around the farms and assign a mare family number (stamm) to each farmers herd.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7257045]
Very interesting discussion. But it does sound like the characteristics/values of a stamm line depends on how vigorously a breeder is willing to cull his broodmare band.
A question for Bayhawk: when presenting a mare for approval in Holstein, do the inspectors taken into consideration the Stamm and how closely that particular mare adheres to the qualities of that line?[/QUOTE]
No , they score each mare on how she stands and moves according to the Verband criteria.
Once you have been to Holstein for a while , you can start to see the different looks to the mares that each farmer has. For example , 474a mares have a different look to them as 776 mares generally
Bayhawk, as long as you are here, there is a head that I associate with Holsteiners. It’s more or less wedge shaped with a very broad brow ans a comparatively short nose, but not at all dished. Am I imagining this? If not, is it thought to come from the mares or the C-line sires? It’s very attractive.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7257622]
Bayhawk, as long as you are here, there is a head that I associate with Holsteiners. It’s more or less wedge shaped with a very broad brow ans a comparatively short nose, but not at all dished. Am I imagining this? If not, is it thought to come from the mares or the C-line sires? It’s very attractive.[/QUOTE]
It is probably coming from Ramzes and Cottage Son xx
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
