Is there a concern that the recognized division will cannibalize the unrecognized?
Here in Area 2 there are numerous fully unrecognized events (18" - M) that thrive despite BN - M having recognized counterparts. Lots of people want inexpensive lower level experience.
But there are also a handful of recognized events that offer an unrecognized starter division alongside the rec event. That division is typically 125 instead of 250. If most starter events around the country are part of that model, starter appended to a recognized HT, then I could see that recognizing that division would leave no inexpensive unrecognized starter option.
I’m also in area 1, but exclusively do the 3 WNY events. I find the BN courses to be straightforward and lacking any of the elements you mention. Last year only the fall event had two jumps on any type of related distance (a barn to a barn on flat terrain halfway through the course). This year area 1 championships had a half coffin in the championship course at BN, but no other combinations. And in my area, the competition courses are available for schooling intermittently throughout the summer, in addition to several other non-competition schooling venues where you can school many of the same elements.
I’m not doubting you that level creep is real and prevalent - my point is that despite the fact that my two local events have inviting BN courses with regular schooling opportunities, starter is overwhelming one of the most popular divisions. I don’t think we can ascribe that solely to level creep. There are 20 year old ponies with 12 year old kids whose parents want them to go starter. There are adult re-riders who feel more comfortable at 2’3" then 2’7".
In the hunters, the 2’3’’ and the 2’6’’ divisions are both incredibly popular division over the same exact course. I truly don’t think making BN courses simpler would eliminate or even dramatically reduce the desire for an option of a lower height.
this is true for me, I am too nervous to jump anything over Starter height XC - I enjoy bopping around the super low level elements with my large pony. I don’t even mind more technical elements and my pony goes better over things where she has to think a little bit - I do wish we could get little combos in SJ.
Some of the BN jumps in my area (III) look huge, with quite a large spread. There are a couple of tables at Majestic Oaks that I am not even confident my pony could jump . I don’t see myself doing BN anytime soon, if ever.
That’s probably the disconnect if you are comparing WNY to MA/NH. Area 1 is huge. I would love to ride a course like you described, that does sound like the original vision of BN!
My two local unrecognized events also do BN and Starter unrecognized and have drawn some of the biggest crowds for years (~200 competitors for those two divisions alone)- but the local recognized events struggle to fill. One thing that sets the local unrecognized event apart is that it costs a fraction of the price. That’s where your draw is.
FWIW, my last recognized BN in Area 1 had multiple related fences on XC and was not a green horse’s course. I saw seasoned pairs struggle to complete. We also had what was in every intent a triple combination in SJ, it just wasn’t marked as such. There were tons of falls and refusals in my division.
The XC course featured several max height fences downhill right before water crossings that caught a lot of pairs, as well as a max table downhill into a gully. A ton of riders had stops there. Overall I thought the course rode well but there was zero let-up and I wouldn’t take a green horse to it. More riders finished on a letter than a number after XC.
My point isn’t comparing WNY to MA/NH though, but rather saying that even where level creep isn’t an issue we’re still seeing huge starter divisions.
I’m torn on recognizing starter for one of the reasons you mention - cost. Recognizing starter will inevitably will raise its costs with the associated fees, even if horse and rider don’t have to be USEA members (for now). However, I think the pros narrowly outweigh the benefits. Having a mandated speed fault time will be an improvement as is standardizing the division and recognizing competitors for year end awards and AECs.
I got your point. What I was replying to specifically was it is an issue in Area 1, just not specific to you in WNY. Area 1 is so big and regional.
If recognized doesn’t cannibalize our existing unrecognized Starter and BN entries, I don’t have a problem with it – but my concern is local venues already have trouble filling their recognized rosters even at BN. I see this as an additional moneygrab on USEA’s behalf to exploit a market that is vulnerable to increasing show costs – including our venues themselves.
Except I specifically mentioned I’m sure it is an issue, its just interesting to note that even where it is not starter is such a popular division.
I’m surprised to hear you say local venues already have trouble filling their recognized rosters at BN, given that UNH and Apple Knoll both had robust BN divisions this year, with multiple splits of 10+ competitors each.
AH! Did you JJ starter? I had my brand new mare doing her first starter event there. We were at the tail end AFTER the hail storm. Did you stay to the end? Which starter jump did you have if you did?
yes I did, I was at 10 and 11. Your horse’s name?I did 2 jumps all day, 11 and 12 mostly. But the jumps were situated so that if I could see one, I couldn’t see the other, so I had to sit sort of in the galloping lane for the first two divisions. I got sunburned in an hour and a half! Then I could sit in the shade for the rest of the day. Must have been as much fun for you all as it was for us!
Number 58 Amazing Grace! Nice flashy dark bay mare with 4 white cross country boots. We over jumped the spotted log , cantered up the hill but trotted 12 as the footing in front of the jumps gave me pause.
It’s a money grab for the USEA and will diminish starter as our local folks will just do unrated. It’s a BS answer that it will standardize starter. Money pure an simple. Leave it alone and make the level family friendly as a good intro to eventing.
The white flag was knocked down, and I walked over to put it back up. When I got back to my seat and sat down, the next horse, ( a bay,) was already over 10, and heading for the pole. I assumed she made it over, because I didn’t see any scrambling, and one horse went thru with the white flag down, and she jumped with no problem. Hope you had a great day. I know I did.
These are only two events in Area 1. UNH has trouble filling every year in the spring. Apple Knoll is very popular and is centric to several major event barns so I would hope they always fill.
Venues in Area 1 this year (and years prior) have postponed or cancelled because of lack of entries across divisions making them unsustainable to run, or extended closing dates to get more entries. I am surprised you aren’t aware of this. Course Brook, Pipestave, Larkin Hill, Riga Meadow, Hitching Post, Kent School, Town Hill, GVRDC all come to mind in the last few years but I am sure there are more, that was only off the top of my head. That’s not factoring in (recognized) events we have lost recently, like Groton House.
Yes, because you mentioned local events having trouble filling at BN, and your a local area being MA/NH. As you’ve also mentioned, Area 1 is quite large and I wasn’t speaking to all of it.
I’m aware some events have had trouble filling and certainly aware that losing great venues is an ongoing concern. To that end, I think offering year end awards and AEC qualifications for starter may increase entries overall. I guess we’ll see what happens next year in any event.
(Not sure if your list of events is supposed to be venues struggling with entries but GVRDC remains quite popular, as is Larkin, both with a high volume of BN entries. GVRDC’s spring event actually only offers N through starter for cross country.)
We just completed a recognized in Area 4 and it was darn close to not happening . At the closing date we had 59 entries across the board. Some complained we changed the date and now it was a week after Otter Creek instead of in Oct but when we had it in Oct folks complained it was too close to the other venue in town. But the vast majority were in BN/Starter with a nice amount in Novice. We ended with 77 entries but still lost money on the event. I think if we are now going to tack on fees to all the starter kids, we’ll lose even more as they will just do the $70 schooling shows.
No. I mentioned that venues had trouble filling recognized rosters. You extrapolated that to mean “venues have trouble filling only at BN and Starter”.
Larkin Hill has extended their closing date for almost every event of theirs in the last three years, because they needed more entries. It’s a fantastic event and their show organizer is very accommodating. A venue as popular as Larkin Hill is experiencing this too, which was my point. Apple Knoll extended their closing date and waived late fees for their fall show, BTW.
Again, if this move doesn’t cannibalize our existing venues that offer unrecognized Starter, great! I’m wondering if enough people are going to pay $225-295 (pulling from Area 1 entry fees) to justify a recognized Starter division. My concern is the cost[s] associated with this - venues are just as vulnerable to rising show costs as competitors are. If they are expected to host Recognized Starter divisions, then I hope that there is reciprocating entries. Otherwise, venues are going to be left shouldering (more) costs they can’t afford all because USEA wanted their fingers in the pie.
To me it seems short-sighted.
I don’t hear many show organizers petitioning to USEA to make Starter recognized. The income from that division often subsidizes the costs associated with running the show, and they will lose a chunk of that income if it becomes Recognized or if competitors push for them to offer it as a Recognized division. I speak from experience here, since I volunteer with my local venue which does host two schooling shows 2x a year that always fill up before close date. Our demographic is almost entirely Starter and BN. We get so many entries because we’re affordable and a fraction of the cost of a recognized venue. I don’t see these competitors being interested in Recognized Starter when they can go to local venues that offer year end awards and the entry is only $90 versus $200+. Maybe your area of the world has Starter people knocking down the door for it to be sanctioned.
I wonder if part of the problem filling is that it is just so darn expensive just to feed and house a horse, let alone show. We have many threads on this. I think that may be part of it.
I wish area IV had more events in July - just 1 I think. Once school starts in Sept, it’s really hard for some of us to get to a show, especially if its a bit of a jaunt…
Yes I know some areas get hot in July but Wayne ran in July… may be there are other reasons that I don’t know of, of course…
I, myself, have decided that I will mainly attend schooling shows (at the same venue and typically same course as recognized) to save that $$ while at stater/BN/N.
The only ones I see getting excited about this are coaches. I feel that there are some coaches that push the recognized shows because they make more money coaching 2-3 days vs 1 + probably a higher fee charged because its “recognized”. These aren’t necessarily coaches that have other riders running training+, but coaches with only riders in starter/BN, maybe pushing novice.
I have not understood why these coaches attend the recognized instead of the schooling show the weekend after, besides if it is making them more money? The prestige of recognized? But these are the coaches who are looking forward to starter being recognized.
. I don’t see myself doing BN anytime soon, if ever.