Staying safe around a "Parelli" .. update post 147

[Sansena]

In my travels I have encountered horses who have been “Natural Horsemanshipped” to the point where ‘common’ horsemanship just.doesn’t.work with them.

Case in point, the horses who fly backward when you face them, refuse to walk next to you or even in your field of vision when being lead, and… those that for some reason, have been chased away upon release of turn out–meaning they tear away before you have a chance to get the halters off.

Suffice to say, I’m desperately trying to avoid shoulder injuries here. I seem to encounter one every time I deal with these types.

Someone needs to write crib notes for handling these types. Save me from having to pore through pages of Parelli preachings. Can someone synopsize for me how to handle these critters, keep myself safe, and not upset the horses too?

I farm sit. So retraining the animals is out of the question. If I wish to succeed, I need to adapt my way of handling them to how THEY are used to being handled. Thanks.

[goodhors]

You might want to contact Pat Parelli at his website to ask these questions. Explain your problems to get specific solutions. He might invite you to a clinic to learn. However if horse has been “over schooled” it might be a bit “mental” in those reactions. I know one nice little horse who got his brain totally fried by owner “who watched the tape”, but got nothing from it about reading that horse WAS submitting. He just kept driving it away for a couple hours. Pretty awful, horse was not right after, got sold because of his ruined mind.

Do owners show you how they turnout horses? Or do they just put up with bad manners, get their arms jerked?

We pay horse sitter to come early when we can walk them thru things. I show them, then they do it with me watching turnout and bringing horses in. They clean stalls so they know how long it takes, rebed, fill buckets, throw hay, mix feed. Of course we pay for the extra visits. I have to stand and watch, which is hard, but I won’t be there to help when they are on their own. They have to manage without me anyway, best to let them do it.

Horses here are very well mannered, so I watch and correct things I may not want done with my horses. Sounds so simple, let the horses out. But other folks SURE don’t do it like we do!! Manners would be gone quickly, horses fighting, pulling away, using some of their methods.

Good luck with finding some answers to save your body. Have you considered cattle farm sitting? Just keep feeders full, tanks topped off, feed the dog and cats? Might be easier not handling the livestock.

[grayci]

First, disclaimer: this is what has worked with most of the nh/parelli trained horses I have encountered. Actual training methods seem to vary widely though they’re in theory using the same material, so ymmv.

Carry a ‘carrot stick’ (driving or lunge wip) with you. Lots of ‘reminding’ (not hitting, but a touch on the chest or shoulder, depending on where you want them to be relative to you). When you get to the gate to turn out, shake the lead a bunch: they should obediently back up and wait for you to open the gate. If they then try to rush; shake lead again and/or another reminder with the whip. They should then walk through, lower head for you to remove halter, and wait for you to step away and give signal (wave of hand or stick) before moving off.

Again; this is MOST I’ve encountered. Some people don’t seem to understand that the training they’re doing is with these resulting behaviors in mind, and that’s where you end up with things like bolting on turnout (because their ‘move off’ signal has been to be chased off or whatever). That’s where the stick really comes in handy. Most will respect it even if their owners got all the other ideas wrong.

[PlanB]

Other than the walking a bit behind you, I’ve never found any of the other problems you are talking about and it sounds like they are the result of poor handling rather than specifically “parelli techniques”. Handle them like any other horse.

I have found that if anything, they are horses who are more likely to wait for instruction rather than assume (like they might not assume they are going through the gate because some people do ground work where they back them through the gate, or ask them to stand and wait in front of an open gate, or go into the paddock and back out).

Also weird that they would automatically fly back when you face them, since the reward in the parelli system is usually a rub on the forehead – the horse is encouraged to lower the head and relax and get a rub.

[alibi_18]

Bolting at turn out has nothing to do with being Parellified.

My answer to those unruly horses:

Work a little on walk/stop command in front of the closed gate.
Idem as above but after opening the gate, in front it.
Idem as above but in the paddock.
You then close the gate and work some more.
While backing up one last time (With you in front and close to the head) : you unclip or remove the halter.

Also: Some horse react to the clip sound being pressed/unclipped.
Have a clip in your other hand and play with it all along. Be aware that the horse might react to it at any time and might try “to escape” thinking they were freed!

What you need to find is what triggers the bad reaction and change the way you approach the problem.

ETA: I also sometime bring carrots with me (not in a herd type situation - don’t want to get killed!) or food in a bucket.
Keep the horse tie until you are on the other side of the gate - with the carrots or food pan well in sight/smell and drop it on the ground. Then untie the horse while he’s eating.

[gumtree]

Everything I have seen used/called N-H is nothing new, just tried and true practices that have been used developed since the first horse was domesticated.

I will give credit where credit is due and they are some things that have been “tweaked” to get better results. By and large everything offered has been packaged into a very clever marketing name.

All horses respond to “reward”. You can “love on” them all you want and some respond better than others. But the most powerful “reward” bar none plays to their most basic need, food.

For horses that have bad turnout manners offering up a treat has always done the trick for me. For horses that love peppermints I get them to understand what the crinkling of the wrapper means. In the beginning give them one while still on the lead, standing quietly. Crinkle the wrapper of a second one while taking off the halter, make sure they stand quietly after and before giving the second one.

For ones that take the mint wheel and take off. I use a bucket of feed. Take the halter off let them stick their head in the bucket and give/use some reassuring body language.

Depends on the horse for how long I have to “bribe” them. I “wean” back off the “treats” and replace with “body language”. May only take a week or so or several weeks. But this has never failed to give desired results. It may require leaving the halter on and lead to give “pressure and release” commands and release with the halter. But that usually changes with some work and time.

Works for me and the use of “my body language”. Body language is a hard thing to teach and or learn. Horses pick up on very subtle things that are not readily evident to a lot of people.

Mush easier to learn from watching/working those who are “fluent” in horse speak.

[Red_Barn]

OMG. Poor you, OP.

I haven’t had good luck with horses like this at all, and I believe permanent deprogramming actually takes quite a long time . . . though these people can, apparently, screw up a normal horse pretty damn fast.

I once had a Parelli horsesitter stay here for less than a week, and she somehow managed to make my ultra-placid old gelding completely headshy in just that time. When asked what on earth had happened, she explained, at great and painful length, her methods for “desensitizing” horses who are afraid of halters - which my horse, needless to say, was not.

Took me two whole weeks to fix that mess, and the poor guy had flashbacks for months after.

[PlanB]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8635144]
OMG. Poor you, OP.

I haven’t had good luck with horses like this at all, and I believe permanent deprogramming actually takes quite a long time . . . though these people can, apparently, screw up a normal horse pretty damn fast.

I once had a Parelli horsesitter stay here for less than a week, and she somehow managed to make my ultra-placid old gelding completely headshy in just that time. When asked what on earth had happened, she explained, at great and painful length, her methods for “desensitizing” horses who are afraid of halters - which my horse, needless to say, was not.

Took me two whole weeks to fix that mess, and the poor guy had flashbacks for months after.[/QUOTE]

Makes me wonder what on earth she was doing to cause that? I used a “NH” method to fix a problem with deworming a new horse, and it actually worked so well I always use that approach when deworming both my horses now.

[aaka208]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8635144]
OMG. Poor you, OP.

I haven’t had good luck with horses like this at all, and I believe permanent deprogramming actually takes quite a long time . . . though these people can, apparently, screw up a normal horse pretty damn fast.

I once had a Parelli horsesitter stay here for less than a week, and she somehow managed to make my ultra-placid old gelding completely headshy in just that time. When asked what on earth had happened, she explained, at great and painful length, her methods for “desensitizing” horses who are afraid of halters - which my horse, needless to say, was not.

Took me two whole weeks to fix that mess, and the poor guy had flashbacks for months after.[/QUOTE]

I’ve had to “deprogram” the last two horses I leased. The first one was a nervy little gelding that the owner couldn’t deal with due to some work-related RSIs; another boarder tried to fix him with a whole lot of Clinton Anderson. That same boarder counseled the owners of the second horse to work him with Clinton Anderson methods. That ended up with one of the owners in the hospital with a separated shoulder and several broken ribs.

I had actually very good success with both horses, but I could never get them to lunge normally. I actually stopped trying to lunge them at all; they were too unpredictable and I was afraid that they would get tangled up in the line and injure themselves.

[SuzieQNutter]

How on Earth are you going to tend a cut on their forehead. … I suppose you will have to do it standing beside them. Nuts.

Do you turn the horse back towards the gate before letting it go?

Clip a lunge rein on. Unclip the lead rope if they go bring them back either the lunge rope.

Repeat until they stand with the clip being releases. After that is down pat try removing the halter.

I would use a lot of reward.

[Sansena]

Thank you to those who gave advise re: bringing a crop to touch shoulder, mints to make them stand.

To those of you who are offering training methods: I think it’s enormously unfair of me to try to get a horse to “behave” the way I think it should when I’m only there for say, 4 - 14 days at a time. I don’t care to invest my time in these critters, only to have the owners return and wonder why Poopsie is suddenly ‘crowding’ him by walking at his shoulder and stopping his feet when the handler does. it’s not fair to confuse the animal in this way… If he’s been trained to walk 6’ behind the leader and stop dead when he’s being faced, then it’s MY job to work around that. Not to try to ‘fix’ the horse when, in the owner’s mind, the horse is just fine.

But I’m definitely increasing my rate for this bunch. Doc’s visit is over $100 bucks and someone’s got to pay for my busted up shoulder. I’m self employed so “worker’s comp” really doesn’t apply here. Totally my fault for not being able to avoid injury.

But let it be said, if one starts to rear on release --as it offered to do this past time-- I’m not going again for love or money. 'Taint worth it.

[Sansena]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8635144]
OMG. Poor you, OP.

I haven’t had good luck with horses like this at all, and I believe permanent deprogramming actually takes quite a long time . . . though these people can, apparently, screw up a normal horse pretty damn fast.

I once had a Parelli horsesitter stay here for less than a week, and she somehow managed to make my ultra-placid old gelding completely headshy in just that time. When asked what on earth had happened, she explained, at great and painful length, her methods for “desensitizing” horses who are afraid of halters - which my horse, needless to say, was not.

Took me two whole weeks to fix that mess, and the poor guy had flashbacks for months after.[/QUOTE]

This upsets me on so many levels. See post above about me trying to ‘train’ someone else’s horse to “my” methods… I hope the flashbacks are over now, poor hoss.

[Scribbler]

I expect that most of the problems come from people with no horse-handling sense gravitating towards Parelli videos and the like, because the programs promise such quick fixes. But, as with the person mentioned in one of the posts who couldn’t see when his horse was submitting, clueless handlers can mess up any technique.

If the horse was just unhandled by a clueless owner, at least the new owner/ trainer/ handler could start from scratch with common-sense ground work. But I suspect that the big problem with badly-taught Parelli is that it messes up all the basic ground work cues that you would want to work with.

[Sansena]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA

This is EXACTLY what I’m up against. Except they bounce around like ping-pong balls the moment you turn your back, so you glance back to see wha da fruit bat is going on? and… pfft. They stop dead. So you wiggle the end of the fekkin’ eleven foot rope at them, and the scoot randomly.

And, heaven forbid you put a knot in the end of the rope. Because THAT would be too restrictive. Yup… nothing like letting 11’ of nylon rip through your hands to make you relish leading a strange 1000 lb critter.

[Red_Barn]

I hope you’re charging these idiots enough money to retire to Majorca.

:no:

Sheesh.

[Countrywood]

You sound sarcastic about NH and as if you are not interested in really learning the basics to know how to handle a horse that has mainly Parelli or NH training, his videos are all over the internet esp the beginning ones the seven games. Perhaps your sour attitude transmits to the horses.

Imo, don’t horse sit for a horse trained differently than what you are used to and that you have no genuine interest in learning a few simple principles to handle them. You could ask their owners to show you, for example.

[roseymare]

I think that training for that style of leading creates a horse that is unsafe.
I am able to lead all of my horse just like he demonstrates because I am the leader. I also can lead them in his “restrictive” method because that is how they are trained and because of that they know I am their leader. Not to mention it is the safest way to lead a horse. He talks the talk and then makes up some magic method to look all knowing.
I feel for the OP and understand that she doesn’t want to train them nor upset her clients by changing the horses behaviors.
You should try having to vet some of these horses.

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8635466]
Thank you to those who gave advise re: bringing a crop to touch shoulder, mints to make them stand.

To those of you who are offering training methods: I think it’s enormously unfair of me to try to get a horse to “behave” the way I think it should when I’m only there for say, 4 - 14 days at a time. I don’t care to invest my time in these critters, only to have the owners return and wonder why Poopsie is suddenly ‘crowding’ him by walking at his shoulder and stopping his feet when the handler does. it’s not fair to confuse the animal in this way… If he’s been trained to walk 6’ behind the leader and stop dead when he’s being faced, then it’s MY job to work around that. Not to try to ‘fix’ the horse when, in the owner’s mind, the horse is just fine.

But I’m definitely increasing my rate for this bunch. Doc’s visit is over $100 bucks and someone’s got to pay for my busted up shoulder. I’m self employed so “worker’s comp” really doesn’t apply here. Totally my fault for not being able to avoid injury.

But let it be said, if one starts to rear on release --as it offered to do this past time-- I’m not going again for love or money. 'Taint worth it.[/QUOTE]

People here are just giving you tricks that could help you not getting injured.

Why can’t you ask owners to show you how to handle their horses anyway?

I really don’t see how good training could be harmfull to any horse no matter how long you’ll stay/ take care of them.

I’m not a NH or Parelli fan at all but still, bolting around and away isn’t a desirable behavior and should be trained out no matter how you do it.

I’ve been a “sitter” myself on several occasion and unruly horses were all “managed” in a way I would NOT be injured (you could say I trained them). Most owners were happy to come back to safer horses.

Also, I would always make sure to handle the horse once or twice before agreeing to take the job.

Maybe you are over horsed by some? If you don’t feel confident enough around the wildest ones, there is no shame of declining the job offer.

[Sansena]

The owners have staff handling their horses.
The staff isn’t fluent in english.
Yes, I’m receptive, but I think Parelli is more interested in hearing himself spew mystical, elusive secrets than actually improving horses overall. That video is a prime example… speaks for most of it on euphemisms of ‘horses to water’ and ‘make them want to drink’ instead of focusing on handler safety and actually HOW to train your horse to follow like a dog.

Alibi… your suggestion of declining is a good one. I gave up riding other folk’s horses years ago. I also have refused to handle fractious horses in the past. These guys aren’t fractious per se. I was hoping I could learn the Parelli way. But, someone else is right… I’m not sure I can get past him to learn these horse’s handling dialect.

More suggestion if you’ve got 'em are welcome. Thanks for everyone’s contributions so far. Much appreciated.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8635523]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA

This is EXACTLY what I’m up against. Except they bounce around like ping-pong balls the moment you turn your back, so you glance back to see wha da fruit bat is going on? and… pfft. They stop dead. So you wiggle the end of the fekkin’ eleven foot rope at them, and the scoot randomly.

And, heaven forbid you put a knot in the end of the rope. Because THAT would be too restrictive. Yup… nothing like letting 11’ of nylon rip through your hands to make you relish leading a strange 1000 lb critter.[/QUOTE]

Well, I’m not a PP fan…at all. I think he’s a hack. I am, however, a Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman and the likes of them fan. Huge fan, in fact…and have the well-behaved, respectful horses to prove it.

That video has quite a number of things wrong with it, and the length of the lead rope is not one of them…Pat’s knowledge about the length of the normal lead rope is even wrong. (while you can find 6’, most are 9’ to 10’). It just shows how he is prone to exaggeration.

That said, dealing with a Parelli’d horse that is acting like the one you described is just about understanding how they are interpreting your actions within their framework and how to “speak” the language they have been taught.

1. If you are facing them and wiggle the lead rope…they are going to go backward…are whichever direction they can away from you. If you are wiggling to get them to go forward, that’s not going to work. You need to “drive” them forward, either by walking forward and they should follow once they hit the pressure of the rope…or by getting into position (you facing forward with their head at your shoulder, and use the lead rope as a driver for their haunches.

Watching the video makes me wonder why I would need my horse to go back that quickly…and why I would need to wiggle my lead rope so excessively. Pat’s completely hamming it up with how fast he’s having the horse back part…and people see that and duplicate it, which ends up being counter productive. You want your horse to take a step back by merely pointing a finger at them (or slightly stepping into them with the right intention). No need to wiggle a lead rope back and forth like that. People don’t understand that you are trying to get to the smallest, most subtle cues possible.

The wiggle in the lead rope should never be back and forth the way Pat does it. It is an up and down movement…with intention to use as little movement as possible. If the horse doesn’t respond, you increase until it does. If the horse will not break free in their feet, you use the rope up and down so that the knot of the rope attaching to the halter under the chin hits them under there (why ropes with snaps are bad…you can’t use for this). The head will go up and they will move away from the pressure. You can also introduce and refine the finger point when you go up and down (and not when you go side to side) with the rope so that eventually, that is all it takes to get your horse to move back. My horses are no where near as soft as Buck’s (I wish )but they all move back with a soft, rhythmic, point, point, point sort of like what Buck is using here at about 0.46 to get his horse to give his eye and move away. (he’s absolutely amazing!)

2. If they’ve been taught to whirl and run when turned out, make it more fun to stay. You say you don’t want to work on these horses at all, so take a handful of carrots with you to the pasture, scatter them on the ground. After turning the horse back to the gate, let them go. They will pretty quickly decide that eating the carrots is better than running off.